Like one
Who having into truth, by telling of it,
Made such a sinner of his memory,
To credit his own lie..
The Tempest. Act i. Sc. 2
So far 7 of our now 13 lostaways can handle a gun with some level of proficiency. Jack has handled the guns on the island with competence despite knowing nothing about ammo and no hint of firearms experience in his backstory. Kate seems to know her way around firearms, and she has used them proficiently in her backstory. Sawyer killed a polar bear with a 9mm - a near impossible task, and he also has used firearms in his backstory. Locke seems comfortable with a handgun on the island, and learned to shoot from his father. Sayid knows firearms from his experience in the Republican Guard. Charlie killed Ethan pretty efficiently despite no hint whatsoever of previous firearm use. He refused to answer a direct question about firearms experience. Shannon, of all people, is a pretty good shot despite nothing in her backstory or character that would explain that.
A number of our lostaways are at least somewhat proficient fighters. And
the lostaways tend to resort to fighting as a means of conflict resolution
pretty quickly. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Locke, Michael, and Jin have been
in fights. Sayid undoubtedly has fighting training.
In my opinion these numbers are high for a random sampling of the population.
What if all these people are in fact some sort of special forces team
and all of them have been mindwiped and given new memories about their
pasts? They could have been training for a decade for this mission. Jack
could have been an army surgeon. Locke a survival specialist. Sawyer a
clerk. Their special forces training, their "muscle memory as it
were" would drive them counter to their personalities all the time,
but under stress it would assert itself. It's also possible Kate's mindwipe
isn't as complete as everyone else's.
Who would do this to the lostaways and why? Suppose way back when some
black government agency set up an experiment on the island to control
people's thoughts somehow. It doesn't matter how. It may have to do with
DNA and the team and children may be related to the original scientists.
The experiment goes bad somehow, a mind-reading monster is created that
aggressively kills anyone trying to stop the experiment or kill it. The
government sends in spec op teams, and they are wiped out immediately.
Then the government notices the French expedition isn't wiped out immediately.
So the government comes up with a new plan. Train a spec ops team for
years, then brainwash them and give them new identities so they appear
harmless to the monster. The government stages the crash and the mission
starts.
The redshirts are not part of the team, but are there to make the crash
look more believable to the team. They are also brainwashed. Claire is
brainwashed. Walt and Claire's baby have some means to penetrate the island's
defenses. The spec ops team has to stop the experiment before the monster
is on to them. This theory is undoubtedly full of holes, but aren't they
all?
go reds
LostInWilderness
That is truly interesting and if it's not the case I want to see a screenplay.
I can see how some of the other castaways could be there merely as "cover
story". Walt is part of Michael's life. Sun is part of Jin's life.
Boone was part of Shannon's life.
Claire could actually be involved also. She did manage to escape from
Ethan without doing unnecessary harm to herself and despite the fact that
she's pregnant, that could have been an accident they didn't quite expect
when they chose her. And Hurley... well he's very agile for a big guy.
He also seems to have an affinity for numbers - could be the brains of
the outfit. Anyone ever notice how some of the seemingly dumbest kids
are practically geniuses when it comes to computers?
This actually has potential.
JacksGirlfriend
If we accept the premise of a government experiment gone awry (I believe
I predicted something of this nature way back when... I must find that
link!), I could accept something similar to what you say, LIW.
Several of our main cast, though, seem awfully young to be part of such
an expensive and risky operation - Sun, Boone, Shannon, Claire. In my
eyes, those would not be a good bet for any governemental agency to spend
money training for such a mission, let alone the number of years of training
involved.
What if it's a mix - within the main cast - of people in the mission and
perfectly innocent bystanders? This would mean that some of our so far
nameless-faceless-mostly silent redshirts may come forward at some point
and be part of the actual team.
Another possibility: what if most of these characters are who they remember
they are, but have subliminal memories / knowledge / abilities implanted
prior to the crash? This would also explain Jack's, Charlie's and even
Shannon's sudden and so far unexplained ease with arms and shooting prowess.
For me the thing is that we don't even have to have more than say, six
or seven people who are the operatives or who have implanted memories;
the rest could be who they are, and it would still work, in terms of deceiving
this mind-reading entity to their real purpose.
azteclady
I think the youth of the castaways makes them the perfect choices for
a mission such as this. They have less life experience, they have made
less choices, they have less natural fear and probably less moral ambiguity.
When you want something done without question, without judgment and without
vacillation, you turn to youth. That's why the draft chooses young men
as opposed to men who know the risks associated with their actions.
JacksGirlfriend
Either the youngsters are related to the original scientists, and have
been trained from youth, either because they have some immunity from the
monster or DNA is important to the experiment, or they are recent recruits.
The grunts if you will. And as jg says, draft the young to be grunts.
LostInWilderness
My fellow Ohioan:
You root for the reds and I will root for the indians and some great day
our two teams will meet in the ws. meanwhile onto a more topical fantasy:
LOST!
I agree that there is a lot of gun activity. And when more guns surfaced
more people demonstrated not only skill but a motivation to fire into,
at, or near other islanders.
I guess two branches of theories are prevalent. Those that involve a human
instigated conspiracy and those that see the island scientifically or
parascientifically as the driving force the lostian drama. Your theory
obviously leans toward the human impetus. And within this framework a
monster is created. I can see that, but I also wonder if the monster might
have been an entity onto itself explaining why the or any govt would target
this hilton-free paradise. To control the monster is to control the island,
which may also have special powers. Or the island and the monster may
be the same manifestation. But the monster does like to play its little
games and is obviously stronger and more invisible than conventional military
forces. So send in these strange people with obsessive pasts to draw the
monster to them. So rather than the monster/island controlling the people,
the people are, unwittingly, to trick the monster/island into being controlled.
To what end? I suppose that the monster would be a handy little weapon,
a la Alien(s). Or it is simply a perceived threat which must be neutralized.
Who knows?
You mention thought control or brainwashing. Are the flashbacks are part
of that? Are they even real? Total Recall is an obvious analogy, but I
prefer a better film: Dark City. There the manipulation is pandemic. Identities
change; people used to be someone and the next day (or night) they are
some one else. Under this analogy all the island characters could be part
of the manipulation scheme. LOST's characters may have been changed only
once (??) but boy do they do the strangest things, and often lacking in
comprehensible cause and effect (Disconnect?). Sometimes I sit there in
disbelief. I mean Kate drugging Jack??? At that strange intervention,
there stand Kate, Sayid and Sun, pleading with Jack to relent. But Kate
moves in. Why just her? Why not Sun with whom Jack shared a traumatic
shock? Sayid is perhaps preoccupied. If your theory is right, was Kate
directed in some way, even without her knowing? Sun just disappeared.
Is that a coincidence?
In my heart of hearts I would prefer no govt involvement in the fate of
the Lostians. However, based on the Sayid flashback the idea of one has
been (re)introduced. But if there is a govt plot afoot, and the monster/island
is the goal, then I will root for the monster/island and hope that some
of the Lostians figure out their fate and are able to resist without experiencing
more hangings, plane plummetings, abductions, or whatever awaits this
silly raft. I can see both the monster and the govt just laughing their
asses off at the futile effort of sailing off for a few minutes before
one force or another intervenes. But someone has to seem relatively real,
with a plan, other than busting into the hatch that is.
boonian androphile
The notion of a years-in-the-planning, meticulously staged operation with
40 odd Bourne identities is wildly improbable. But not more so, as LiW
rightly states, then at least half the overarching theories yet proposed.
But no one has mentioned what would be, for me, the strongest evidence
for such a scenario: JJ's Alias. There are more "aliases" on
that show then wigs and deadly compacts wielded by Sydney Bristow. Abrams
clearly loves the motif of mistaken identity and hidden talents. Whether
that features in a wholescale mindwipe of the castaways, I seriously doubt.
But I don't think we can dismiss the possibility.
I mean, the Bourne Identity was a pretty good flick!
drabauer
Ok I realize this is my first post and all, i think the idea of a spec
ops team is realy streching it. It's a good idea to a point, but i will
be very upset if that's where this ends up going.
Ok, yes. There has been a lot of gun play, however, 1. it's tv. everyone
can shot a gun one tv. 2. charlie shot ethan from something like 5 feet.
not a hard shot to make. 3. i don't really have a 3 right now but i hate
making a list and ending on 2.
hope i don't step anyone ones feet and please don't be gentle in letting
me know if i'm ever wrong. see you all around i hope.
IndyMage
The trouble is that no one theory can answer all the dangling questions.
The easiest one to fit is that the island has a mind of its own and can
do anything it wants. Man and woman vs nature---with a twist. People have
to live off an island that is also their enemy.
The notion about the shooting is more about a statistical anomaly than
whether a gun is easy to handle. I think that LIW makes a good point there.
I dont know if the gun idea leads automatically to a govt conspiracy,
however. A case for Fight or Flight can just as easily be made. If someone's
afraid he/she runs; if some one is pissed, he/she shoots.
Don't worry about toes. LIW himself admitted holes in the theory. For
myself, the show takes on an epic, poetic quality which leaves logic and
fact argument waiting at the door.
boonian androphile
The brainwashed idea would explain some confounding behavior and the "disconnects."
After reading this, I'm brought back to the scene where Locke is hunting
with his father. To go with your brainwashing idea, it was like Locke
already knew how to shoot a gun (but Locke wasn't aware that he did).
He was too fast a learner with the gun, and even Locke's father was 'blown
away' at Locke's skill. It was like "Locke's father" was testing
him. Testing his skills, testing if Locke believed who he was portraying
- or acting. Which then leads me back to the operation. I'm still thinking
no kidney was removed, but some kind of operation took place. I've suggested
an implant before, but maybe it was continued brainwashing or memory implants.
The flashbacks might be implanted memories. Some of them actually have
a "digital rewind sound to them". Go take a listen to Locke's
fast-forward in the Teresa goes up the stairs scene.... It's got a dvd
skipping quality.
---
OK, being a little silly here: what if this crew of people are re-programmed
(secondary market) agents. They each are special with an extraordinary
skill but that knowlege has been wiped clean and they have been sold like
old weapons to an outside group. Their innate skills are needed but not
their life experience. Like retired broken super-heros, collectively they
can fix the problem - hatch, monster, etc.
sawyerhasbestlines
Quote:
What if all these people are in fact some sort of special forces team
and all of them have been mindwiped and given new memories about their
pasts?I will write this down as The Manchurian Candidate theory
Warthawg1
Warthawg, it's closer to the Bourne Identity than Manchurian Candidate.
The former was trained thoroughly over a long period of time as a special
forces agent for any mission. That latter was brainwashed for a short
period for one specific task.
Of course, that could be the case, which is a more believable premise.
drabauer
Never saw the Bourne Identity, so I just pulled a movie title that seemed
a tiny bit similar out of my.....
Warthawg1
Welcome to the board! It is good to see a new name. I respect your opinion,
but I don't agree with it.
IMHO, this is a story about overtly supernatural events and beings. Walt
can summon a bird or a polar bear with just a thought, and his own step
father feared his powers. Locke can request divine assistance and then
experience a prophetic dream. Hurley uses the numerology to gain wealth,
but acquires a curse along with his millions. Sayid pointed out that the
plane crash itself was miraculous. I could go on and on, those are just
the first examples I can recall...
Theories that focus on a government or criminal conspiracy just aren't
wild enough to account for the phenomena that we see each week. You could
say "well some things are implanted memories." The problem with
that is that supernatural events occur in both the flashbacks and the
presentday plot on the island. So if it is an implanted memory, then it
is a recurring one.
OhioSteve1
I don't recall off the top of my head any supernatural events in the flashbacks.
Maybe I'm just drawing a blank. Other than Claire's psychic, who may or
may not actually have been psychic, and Walt's bird, I can't think of
any. I specifically singled out these character in the theory as special
and important to shutting down the experiment. In this theory, the plane
crash was no miracle, it was staged. The supernatural events on the island
are a result of the ongoing experiment, the experiment the spec ops are
supposed to shut down.
LostInWilderness
Thinking about the psychic and if it was supernatural.
It very well, could have been a set-up.
At the time, it appeared to us that the psychic intuitively figured out
she was pregnant. But maybe her friend, set her up. After the Sayid episode,
that sort of scenerioa is possible. It's not like Claire went there on
her own. Her friend took her there.
sawyerhasbestlines
SHBL says this:
"OK, being a little silly here: what if this crew of people are re-programmed
(secondary market) agents. They each are special with an extraordinary
skill but that knowlege has been wiped clean and they have been sold like
old weapons to an outside group. Their innate skills are needed but not
their life experience. Like retired broken super-heros, collectively they
can fix the problem - hatch, monster, etc."
SHBL - I think I see where you're driving at here. But in this case, What
do you think the flashbacks are? Are they real? Or did the powers-that-be
write them in? If they are real, are they a 'glitch in the system?' i.e.,
are the survivors supposed to remember them? Or are they like, from the
Bourne Identity, when Jason Bourne is getting all those tidbits from his
flashbacks that were supposed to have been erased?
I like where this theory is going. I like the idea that the survivors
are put on the island to do a specific task. I like the idea that they
may not all complete the task, and some of them may or may not remember
who they were before all the training.
And, back to the debate about the youth. Not only is it common to use
youth for tasks such as these, I might point out the obvious: younger
people have less to go back home to. Younger people are less likely to
have established families, careers, etc. that they don't want to jeopardize.
Interesting.
JOSIE4
I dont know whether there one can find a lot of supernatural phenomena
in the flashbacks, but the two that one can make cases for are 1) Walt,
who many claim has powers, and 2) Claire, whose child engenders feverish
speculation.
Way at the beginning I was leaning towards a science fiction solution
to LOST. I will stand by that but I think that there are supernatural
qualities as well. There are so many metaphysical references on this show
that something distant from what we call "fact" is going on.
The religious and literary references alone---now celtic imagery is flying
in from the past. And in the distant past, and even in the middle ages
and the Shakespearean age (I imagine), people believed in the reality
of spirits, ghosts, demons, devils, monsters, etc. Why not have science,
or science in the guise of science fiction, meet our distant past: mysticism;
superstition; metaphysical manifestations; etc.? A total science solution
traps things in a box. A total supernatural solution lets things explode
well beyond tangible boundaries. Why not both? Man and his rationality
are the science. Man and his fears are the supernatural. But whatever
the show decides ultimately to reveal, maybe half of the viewers will
be satisfied. And half of those people only half the time. The show set
itself up for this by disclosing pre-theories that created a clinging
desperation for science/fact only while the signs, omens, portents, oracles,
and dreams point in another direction and take people like me for a grand
ride. The show cant say one thing and do another and expect to be believed.
Maybe that is why I am hoping for both the physical and the metaphysical.
Then when it's all done, I can say I enjoyed LOST and I can also say that
I respected the show.
Sorry folks. Guess my dislike of the religious middleman extends to television
as well.
boonian androphile-
This is a show about secret conspiracies in the real world today. It contains some sci-fi elements, but only things that could be plausible for a secret power group to invent today. So for example, cloning or artificatial intelligence could enter the story. But there is nothing really fantastic like interstellar travel, supernatural beings, or magic. That is my honest understanding of your position.
I will call the conspiract "the agency". Now, what has the agency
done?
The agency arranged for Hurley to win the lottery. Then it arranged for
many misfortunes to effect him. The old Australian woman's story is also
a fabrication. The agency also caused 815 to appear frequently in other
characters' lives (ie, Kate's safety deposit box, Charlie's copier).
The agency fabricated each of the incidents involving Walt.
The agency staged the dialogue between Claire and the psychic.
The agency staged each of the incidents where lostaways heard whispers
in the jungle
The agency caused the plane to crash. Plus, they were so good that they
could make it crash over a tiny island in the pacific ocean. Plus, most
of the survivors were not injured seriously.
The agency restored Locke's ability to walk. Then it caused his paralysis
to recur. It also caused him to have a prophetic dream.
The agency caused unusual tides to occur. It also caused compasses on
the island to malfunction. It also staged Boone's brief conversation with
himself in the small plane.
The agency created an invisible monster.
You could include a couple of these things and still make the cause something
like a secret govt lab. But all of them? No, you could not do it without
making the whole story feel very contrived.
OhioSteve1
Imo steve, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar - but not all the time.
Some of the events you describe are normal, some are not. I can't tell
you which is which right now, and I doubt we'll ever know.
LostInWilderness
Ohio Steve-Quote:
I will call the conspiract "the agency". Now, what has the agency
done?
The agency arranged for Hurley to win the lottery. Then it arranged for
many misfortunes to effect him. The old Australian woman's story is also
a fabrication. The agency also caused 815 to appear frequently in other
characters' lives (ie, Kate's safety deposit box, Charlie's copier).I
see it more like the agency set up stack of dominoes, and pushed them.
In otherwords they didn't have to manipulate and control every event.
(Trying harder) Ok, "the agency" is aware of Walt's specialness,
Claire's, Jack, etc. They are also aware of the Lost island and it's unique
qualities that may or may not be man-made. But erasing their memories
only helps their unique special abilities surface without the distractions
of real life things like 'love and family' to oppose their task.
----
Josie,
I don't know if the flashbacks are real or not. Sometimes they seem like
a skipping CD - that creates an internal schism most clearly illustrated
with Jack. Locke's vision of his mother pointing to the trainwreck was
not a narrative style flashback the show usually uses. They could be something
beyond false memories implanted. They could have been brainwashed and
assigned a pschiatric disorder. Each disorder has it's own archtypal myths
that could possibly only serve to enhance their "special gifts."
Give someone a disorder and they will create their own bad script and
narrative. Nobody would need to even provide the story, the brain will
do that on it's own.
On the otherhand, Locke seems like he's controlled by a remote control
device. He reminds me of a remote control toy plane. Even his visions
seem more like a DVD put into the receiver and the play button pushed
supplying him with whatever vision is required to control his behavior.
Sometimes he goes in robot mode - and disabled like one.
sawyerhasbestlines