The Caves

Lost-tv Theories & Speculation

Be not afeard; the isle is full of noises,
Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices
That, if I then had waked after long sleep,
Will make me sleep again: and then, in dreaming,
The clouds methought would open and show riches
Ready to drop upon me that, when I waked,
I cried to dream again.
The Tempest. Act iii. Sc. 2

Dreamtime 1

The Map

Well, after seeing that map, I am even more sure that we are on the right track. Especially since the center seems exactly like Sayeed's when he placed the maps over each other. Maybe the French woman was looking for the way out, the nexus point back into our reality, The Physical World. And this talk of a black rock is clearly a reference to a magnet, and makes sense that Sayeed's compass wouldn't work. And Ayers rock has magnetic properties. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the black rock is the source of power for the French womans transmission, but hey I could be wrong. Also, thanks to everyone for the kind words, and extra research.

george242

On writers being lazy!

Purr: I know writers are lazy. Even with Google. They are NOT going to go into something this elaborate. If I am wrong, I buy the first round of drinks.

cccourt

Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Just a thought -- and lord knows I am probably wrong...

But perhaps we are looking at this map the wrong way.

Perhaps this is not a map of the "island."

Perhaps this is a spiritual map.

Instead of assigning certain characters in the show to certain nodes why don't we apply each character to the map.

Wynter Zera is right -- this is something that is very important to understanding Locke as Locke seems to fill up each of 3 nodes that comprise the pyramid...

He seems in touch with the Physical World (able to track, hunt, etc...), The Human World (ability to read people, to teach people, to communicate and make peace with people) and the Spiritual World (his respect for the land, his mysticism -- for lack of a better word)

Because he is in touch with these nodes (the big 3 that comprise the pyramid) he has the ability to adapt and change, heal/see into the future (predict rain), tell stories and so on...

He is the only one that fits the criteria on this show however.

Perhaps conflict will arise when we see other characters filling up certain nodes and not touching on other ones.

Boone is learning these three nodes, perhaps others will follow... I think Locke is indeed teaching this map to each of the survivors, to prepare them for something...

I might add - this map is hard to read and there are parts where I cannot read what is written.

Anybody here with Photoshop that is willing to sharpen the image for us?

purrkins

Re: Thank You

Wynter Zera says:

Quote:
Over all I think this theory is important to understanding Locke. Locke most likely knows all this and is referring to it at times.

Great point WZ! We all know Locke

Hodgepodge

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Ripped from the web:

>From abeggs@peg.apc.org Sun Dec 1 08:39:29 1996
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 00:23:57 +1000
From: abeggs@peg.apc.org
Reply-To: kronia-l@teleport.com
To: kronia-l@teleport.com
Subject: The Australian "Dreamtime"

Title: The Australian "Dreamtime"

Walter and Pam both shared their approach to the meaning of
"dreamtime" or "dreaming" in Australian aboriginal mythology.

Walter had said: "The aborigine "dreamtime" is hard for me to
comprehend outside my Western analytical framework. But I'm not
so sure that my capacity to analyse sets me at such a disadvantage
in at least beginning to sort out the "dreamtime" by assuming that
Aborigines indeed have dreams, that they are vivid and compelling
and that they are attempting to incorporate these strange internal
landscapes into their waking lives."

Pam replied: "I got the distinct impression from books I've read
that the dreamtime is vitally connected to "place" - because they
refer to the Kalgoorlie dreamtime or the Wallogong dreamtime or
the Oodnadatta dreamtime and are familiar or mostly familiar with
their own dreamtimes connected with their own ancestral places.
And from this, I gather that it's not just "vivid and compelling
dreams" they're talking about but the history of the place thru
the dream and TIME landscape of their own culture--what has
happened on all levels to this people in this place & the time
seen as sort of like the Greek kairos vs. chronos time--chronos
time being what o'clock it is (i.e. a fairly scientific record of
progression of seasons & astronomical observations) and kairos
being what time is FOR--the subjective journey of a people thru
spacetime."

----ooooOOOOoooo----

One of the first things I learned about "Dreamtime" is that the
term, not surprisingly, is a misnomer. It has nothing to do with
"dreams," as such. That is, the Australian aboriginal peoples do
not use "dream analysis" in the sense we Westerners use it (though
some New Guinea cultures do use the ritual analysis of last
night's dreams as part of their daily ceremonies.)

Where, when, and why the term arose I've not yet found out. But
its meaning in the original language terms would translate better
as "Golden Age" (complete with catastrophic collapse!). Most
indigenous people I've spoken with prefer the English word
"history" as a translation. They distrust the term "mythology"
because they know that we Westerners consider "myth" to be nothing
but fable and fiction (Ah, but we Saturnists know it differently,
don't we?)--and they believe the events they are describing
actually happened.

So whenever I see the term "Dreamtime" I read it as "history."
Australian history told by the indigenous cultures.

Now, in a very real sense it is also His-Story *and* Her-Story.
For it seems that every language group has (at least) two versions
of the Creation Story--the one told by the men and the one told by
the women. In Northern Arnhem Land this "two-story" complex is
woven throughout the entire culture. A person is born either "Dua"
or "Yirritja." This means rights and ceremonial obligations to a
whole complex of different His-Stories and Her-Stories.

In the stories of Djankawu told by the "Dua" people, Djankawu is
the hero who arrives in his canoe with his two sisters and his
huge spear and proceeds to create the land, the animals, and the
people. In the Wagilag Sisters stories of the "Yirritja" it is the
two Sisters (who are later swallowed and regurgitated by the
Rainbow Serpent) who give `birth' to the people and the animals.
Both stories are told side-by-side within the same language
groups, and within different language groups.

At a symbolic level these two stories are very similar. But in the
telling they are very different. This is partly because of what
Pam refers to as "kairos, being what time is FOR--the subjective
journey of a people thru spacetime," but it is also because each
*part* of the story has its own location in the landscape. Each
`sacred site' must be visited, and re-visited, and the
journeys/deeds of the Ancestors must be re-enacted through
ceremony, dance and song.

The Djankawu story and the Wagilag Sisters story are shared by
many different language groups over a vast area of Australia.
These are the `lands' created by these Ancestors. Each language
group knows, in broad outline, where the Ancestors started, where
they travelled, what they created, and where they went. At the
local level each language group celebrates those parts of the
Story which occurred within their area. And the people, like the
Ancestors, *walk* to these places and repeat the Ancestor's deeds
through symbol and ceremony.

In any particular geographical area there will be sites that are
sacred to the `big-time' Ancestors like Djankawu, Morning Star,
Rainbow Serpent, or Wagilag Sisters. But there will be many sites
that are sacred to other `local' Ancestors who created specific
geographical features or specific local flora or fauna. These
stories crisscross the land according to which direction the
Ancestor came from and went to. All of these stories combine to
tell the whole history of the tribe since Creation. And the
*journeys* of the `big-time' Ancestors are maps to vast tracts of
land which the local tribe knows of--some parts of which a few
members of the tribe may need to visit, occasionally, for ritual
exchange of gifts and/or initiation ceremonies.

It is said that the Stories of the Ancestors are "written into the
land." The landforms and animals are a witness to the deeds and
journeys of the Creation Ancestors. If you knew the story of
Djankawu you could cover a thousand miles and pass through the
lands of several hundred different language groups. What would get
you through would be the stories and *symbols* of Djankawu that
you would carry with you.

And so, an individual person's "dreaming" is a combination of
`sacred sites,' the `sacred stories' connected with these sites,
and the resulting ritual and ceremonial obligations *at* these
sites. A "dreaming place" is one of these sacred sites. And the
"Dreamtime" is the `historical' period in the past when these vast
events happened. For the "Dreamtime" had a beginning, a series of
transformations, and a catastrophic ending--just like the Golden
Age. And the re-telling of these events continues to this very day
as the Australian aboriginal people celebrate the songs, stories,
ceremonies, and *journeys* of their Dreamtime Ancestors.

Hope this helps.

Allan

Link here

Wynter Zera

Re: Dogs and Aborigines

According to Aborigine belief : Dogs forwarn of evil spirits and keep mamus away. From the internet:
MAMU: A dingo spirit who eats and absorbs the spirits of children who stray at night. ...

Things that make you go, hmmmm!

lostinchitown

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Can't really sharpen the image without making it ridiculously large (bandwidth-wise), but here's the link to the pdf that's easier to read:

aboriginalart.com.au/cult...amtime.pdf

And here's what some of the smaller writing says:

Around the "sky" circle, it says, "Moon", "Stars, "Sun".

To the right of the "law" circle, it says " Cannot change (Contrast with white law). It differs only a fraction between tribes.

Around the "ceremonies" circle, starting in upper left going clockwise, it says, "Painting", "Dancing", "Teaching", "Storytelling", "Singing".

Around the "land" circle, starting in upper left going clockwise, it says, "Trees", "Waterholes", "Rocks", "Sites".

Inside the "tracks" circle, it says, "Lang/cross with each other + strong events + points" [don't have the foggiest idea what that might mean].

Directly above the "sacred" circle is a circle that says, "Exists outside of time, not past or future."

Below the "stories" circle it says, "Explaining the world: creation, destruction, change, relationships." And in the circle below that it says, "Example, Seven Sisters."

In the circle to the left of "Nguraritja," it says, "Who's responsible for owning and taking care of different places."

Below the "rules of behavior" circle, from left to right, it says, "Secrecy", "Who you can marry."

If I had a lot of time, I'd try to make a better chart, but that will have to do for now. Hope it helps.

drypelia

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

I came back to this thread and what a journey it's taken! First, I own a bullroarer; Second, I've studied African societies that have strikingly similar ceremonies: male-only ancestral spirit societies in which the spirits come to a village during special ceremonies and frighten women and children, heralded by drums the size of a house.

I love how some of the research you did on low frequencies purr fits right into my sound theory

Sonic Bloom theory

Here is a slightly sharpened version of the spirit map:

 

drabauer

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Wow guys - This is fascinating stuff. It seems to combine supernatural/mystical elements with reality, offering us our real world wrapped in magic, which is exactly where I wanted it all to go in the first place. A very nice blend. I like it. Keep it coming.

JacksGirlfriend

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Wow. I'm pretty much now convinced that LOST is shaped around this Aboriginal "Dream Time" theory. I never heard about it before, but now I'm very interested in it. I wonder if the creators will deny this theory..

ViCyniC

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

What a great thread!

I love the dreamtime idea, although I think the writers would draw inspiration from it, rather than follow it too closely. Same with the triangle; it's a pretty common shape used to organize ideas. I do think Locke's walkabout knowledge is informing his actions on and with the island, though.

I love the bullroarer/sound thing. It doesn't really sound like the monster to me, but perhaps it's an allusion to those ideas from Australia. It sounds more like the whispers that Danielle, Sayid, and Kate have heard. I've never heard one in real life, but I imagine it's not as creepy as it might seem in the context of an actual ritual-type experience. I would think it's more of a tool to put one in a spiritual/alternate state of mind, like drums, or bells. There is a lot of emphasis on sound in the show, so I think the bullroarer idea could be important in understanding how to interpret the sounds. The characters are afraid of the monster and whisper sounds, but maybe they aren't interpretting them correctly. It may explain why Sayid suddenly claims all he heard was the wind, when we know he heard more than that.

spooky

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Gone for a few days but not forgotten.

Been musing over this now for a few days...

drabauer,
Interested to know more about these other myths you mentioned and what you might have to add about a Bullroarer in these ceremonies. I have come under the impression that many cultures have similar instruments (just called by different names) that are used in ceremonies.

Perhaps looking there we can find more clues.

Thanks for the cleaner map by the way.

Picked up a few Aboriginal books this weekend and I am goin through them to find additional similarities.

I will report all findings here.

All the best,

purrkins