Be not afeard; the isle is full of noises,
Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices
That, if I then had waked after long sleep,
Will make me sleep again: and then, in dreaming,
The clouds methought would open and show riches
Ready to drop upon me that, when I waked,
I cried to dream again.
The Tempest. Act iii. Sc. 2

Dreamtime 2

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Yes, purrkins, there are many cultures that have similar secret society monster/spirit of the dead rituals, and every single one features some kind of overwhelming music instrument which is somewhere between sound and music. It is interesting to note that the lament, the musical genre that in so many cultures bridges the world between the living and the dead, originated in the cry of the Gorgon. Euryale came to the Greek Goddess Athena with a song of grief so devastating that it inspired the creation of an instrument (the aulos), a song (the lament), and a sound–somewhere between the human and the beyond–that instantiated the pain of the gods.


In Papua New Guinea there are rituals involving drums and chanting, and all over Africa and South America as well. The Igbo had an idiophone (Log drum) as large as a house that a special priest would pound on during the ceremony of the ancestral spirits. The "spirits" were village men, led by an elder, but they were not recognized as such. That is, they retired to their lodge, dressed up in masks and came into town on the sacred evening, terrorizing women and children with wild dances, threats of violence (but not actual violence unless someone removed the mask), kind of like Shyamalan's the Village when you think of it. For the ceremony kept order and peace, although the men, having gone through sacred rites previously, assumed that they indeed were possessed by the spirits of the dead. The bewildering aspect of it all is that anthropologists discovered that the wives invariably knew their husbands were the "spirits," but never let on (under pain of death or banishment)! This fact is also common to most of these cultures: the acceptance of the "farce" for the good of the community.


I go into such detail because we could be seeing a 21st c. high tech version of such a mechanism for social control. Sound, motion and general confusion all lead the castaways to fear a monster, when the whole could be greater than--or altogether different--than the "parts."


To get back to the matter of sound: yes, the bullroarer makes a loud, eerie sound, but it is a really simple instrument, and anyone might construct one from a coffee can or something similar. However, if physically one could keep swinging it, the steady rhythm of the phase shifted tones (the "doppler affect" that you get from swinging it around in a circle which, depending on the size and bore of the roarer, could produce a huge vibrato), along with extreme high and low frequency variations (again, depending on construction) could easily lead to a trance-like state. To take another example: the ceremonies of Brazilian Candoblé, during which the ceaseless, intricate drum patterns and dancing lead to possessions, during which participants may speak in tongues and relate some prophetic hallucination. (There are certain drum rhythms that one may use in secular, dance music, and certain rhythms only allowed within the sacred confines of a ceremony because of their "power" to cross over from this to the spirit realm.)


Wow, this is a long post! Well I dabble in ethnomusicology, so this topic has struck a "chord" with me.


But one more tidbit about Aboriginal music: the digiderdoo, which many people have heard as an aural "signifier" of Australia, is another deceptively simple instrument with a huge frequency range. An expert plays it with circular breathing, allowing him/her to continue almost indefinitely. Thus, similar to the bullroarer, it creates an organic pulse created by the change in harmonics (lots of overtones) as they follow the breathing cycle. I don't know much about this music, but I'm sure its also used in certain ceremonies.

drabauer

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

This is a great thread! Australia, Aborigines, Walkabout, Locke as a person that connects to the 3 nodes...it very much fits to everything we've seen concept-wise.
What if this is not actually a spiritual place, but rather a normal place which mimics dreamtime?
By choosing the right frequencies, hallucinations and dreams could be triggered...right?
I took it this way from one of the text passages purrkins posted earlier. This is what could have happened. Sound frequencies mess with people's minds. Maybe they originate from the Black Rock. Sound plays a vital role in this show, I'm quite certain about that.


This sounds good. The writers must have taken this concept for Locke's character at least. To explain why he is doing all the things he does. I wouldn't bet the mystery of the island is all based on it, though.


Abraxas

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

This is all very very interesting and seems to fit. However, how does the pilot getting ripped from the cockpit and killed by the "monster" fit into all of this theory?

dfrandsen

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Quote:
What if this is not actually a spiritual place, but rather a normal place which mimics dreamtime?
By choosing the right frequencies, hallucinations and dreams could be triggered...right?

Yes, Abraxas, that's what I was thinking. Some of the ideas I brought up in Sonic Bloom are but a more sophisticated version of what so-called primitive cultures have known foe millenia. I think, based on everything the producers have said, there will be more than one answer: part of it will be the properties of the island itself, and part will be someone's manipulation of those properties for good or ill.


drabauer

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Quote:
But one more tidbit about Aboriginal music: the digiderdoo... Thus, similar to the bullroarer, it creates an organic pulse created by the change in harmonics (lots of overtones) as they follow the breathing cycle.

Thanks for all info, dr. a. Very interesting stuff. The sound of the bull-roarer also reminded me of the digiderdoo. Not to get too spacey, but the sound of a live (and I must accentuate Live, it's not the same hearing as it in the opening of Survivor) digiderdoo will take you to a "different" place whether you meant to go or not. If nothing else, the sound vibrates into the core of your body like nothing else I've ever heard does. Except maybe for that bull roarer sound. I don't know anything about Aboriginal culture or religion, but after hearing a digiderdoo live, I think I understand a tiny bit about their connection to the land around them. This is a gut-shaking, heart murmuring, the-center-of-the-earth-is-talking-to-me sound. I wish I had one!


spooky

Re: Aboriginal Dream Time

I can only imagine how disheartened the writers/creators might get if they come upon this thread: "They're onto us, JJ! Whadda we do!?" "Same thing we do every night, Pinky..."


You guys are going to put unbelievable pressure on them to produce and stay one step ahead. :)


I wonder when Sayid'll figure out that his compasses are pointing to the Black Rock. Also, curious: does anyone know if airliners have some sort of warning system to alert pilots to strong magnetic fields that might interfere with onboard orientation/navigation systems? Would that explain the pilots' getting so off course? Damn Black Rock.

LostPolarBear

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

Quote:
I don't know anything about Aboriginal culture or religion, but after hearing a digiderdoo live, I think I understand a tiny bit about their connection to the land around them. This is a gut-shaking, heart murmuring, the-center-of-the-earth-is-talking-to-me sound. I wish I had one!

It's very easy spooky--you can make a very serviceable didjeridu (just checked the proper spelling) out of a length of PVC piping. I have found (had a few lessons) that playing them is really challenging however. The only friend I had that could really do it was a trombonist; it takes lots of lung power. But yeah, low frequencies coupled with wild harmonics and circular breathing=very intense listening experience. In Australia they are made from a termite hollowed eucalyptus branch. This is supposed to be the best site out there:


australian didjeridu cultural hub


Of interest to other posters will be the quicktime movies of aboriginal ceremonies archived on the site. Lots and lots of fascinating sound here!


Here is one of the many sound clips that gives you an idea of the instruments sound and playing technique:


Didjeridu sample


This is a fabulous clip showing a guy chopping down a tree and making one before your eyes:


www.ididj.com.au/downloads/quicktime/djalu/djalu_cutting2.mov


And one final quote to whet your interest:


It appears likely that the special breathing technique needed to play the didjeridu as well as the distinct acoustics of the instrument both have positive effects on inducing the alpha brain wave patterns that are associated with deep meditation.

drabauer

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly

It might be important to be aware of the possibility that the spiritual map is a scholarly attempt at organizing the aboriginal belief system - hence making it a second-hand interpretation and thus sort of hearsay. Basically, that diagram is not as the aboriginals would pass the knowledge on to their own children and descendants. It's the way a bloke in khaki shorts and maybe a safari hat would try to explain it to the outside world. But as Greg pointed out, there are some pretty striking echoes of Sayid layering Danielle's maps to produce a 'triangle with land at the center' - just like in the spiritual map.


Also, if Locke was aware of the idea of Dreamtime - had maybe come across it in preparation for his Walkabout - it seems that would put him in sort of prophet/shaman role for the rest of the crew.


I'm not sure about the Will as Fuel angle: do you think there is then something that kept Jack from saving the pilot or the marshall or the lady that drowned?

LostPolarBear

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly



- I watched the recommended Peter Weir's aboriginal
movie LAST WAVE. Wow, quite a lot of connections that make me understand LOST. One of the lasting impressions is that in Last Wave, everytime someone is experiencing DreamTime, they are in shadow - there is no light on them - and the BullRoar sound appears. It's difficult to distinguish dream time and real time until it's explained in the end.


- the people that appear in someone's dreamtime are neutral in that they are not good or evil but are there to relay a message, show a symbol. (I'm thinking how Locke appeared in Claire's dream) It's like a dream e-mail.


- the main character in the movie, Richard Chamberlain's character is channelling an ancient spirit or he is sharing it's reincarnation. The message is that it is an end of an era, there is an apocolypse about to happen and a new cycle will begin.


- some aboriginees who are special with powers have the ability to shapeshift, appear in other's dreams to communicate, have out of body experiences allowing them to be somewhere else and to share that vision with others, and to speak in languages they don't know.


- there is the notion of parallel realities happening at the same time.


Anyway, it made me think Locke is not causing the hallucinations people are having. He's just the one who knows there are REAL AND hallucinigenic experiences happening simultaneously - and that they are happening for a reason which is unique to each person.


So in a sense Shannon really did die, and so did Charlie, and so did the pilot. Yet, simultaneously they also lived. If you look at it in that way things Locke say make sense, like when he says to (Walt/Michael/Boone?) "who's to say it's not real" and whatever it was he said to Jack when he was falling off the cliff in the beginning. This would mean we will probably see the pilot again soon.


Time was circular (not linear) in Last Wave. Not exactly a reincarnation, or simple repitition of a cycle like the way we look at seasons. I got the sense the Aboriginees perceive time much different than westerners. It's like the future has already happened (opposed to about to happen) so therefore it's similar to fate and destiny. This makes me think about Claire and the psychic. Which means the psychic didn't manipulate Claire so much as he just saw what was inevitible.


-------------------------------------
Drabauer,
On a whole other topic, did you or anyone see the PBS documentary about the sand dunes on the planet that make emit a noise. (Reminded me of the bullroar) Some researches tried to figure out why these particular geographical areas emit a sounds. Marco Polo wrote about it, and I think Darwin did too. It was interesting. My memory is not so good on the details but I believe this one particular dune or all of them produce a note in F or G. They explained how it works using a metaphor of how the vibrations on a stringed instrument resonate and produce sound.

clone11 (sawyerhasbestlines)

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly


Wow clone11 AKA sawyerhtbls! Thanks so much for the description of the Last Wave and the PBS show. First, it'd been years since I'd seen that movie, and I don't think I understood it at the time. I hope it does tie into Lost. I would love for Locke to be the Chamberlain character, the one who realizes that he may have inherited this ancient gift/responsibility to open others to mystery.


Now this seems to conflict with my stated preference for scientific explanations. But I really just want a unified conception. If for some reason the Aboriginal journey fits in, so be it.

Quote:
On a whole other topic, did you or anyone see the PBS documentary about the sand dunes on the planet that make emit a noise.

No I didn't see that--can you remember anything else about it? As SepfProjectRealized pointed out in another thread, pbs makes many of their docs available for download on the web.


I can add, though, that such a phenonmenon is very common. Wind whistling through any number of natural formations can produce distinct tones. There are also a lot of inadvertant but fascinating manmade such structures. A friend in Växjö Sweden introduced me to a water tower that magnifies any sound made underneath it 50x or so. An accident of design, but one that's brought musicians and such from around the world to record there.

drabauer

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly


Re: singing sand dunes


Apparantly, wind does not cause the sound. (shock)


It can only happen in (7?) places on the planet and only when particular conditions co-exist. The dunes have to be a certain (tall) height; each grain of sand has to be the same size; underneath the top sand there has to be a foundation of packed very hard sand. The sound comes from within the dune whenever the top layer of sand falls like an avalanche. The sound is the result of all the little grains ringing.


I think they all sing in the same key though it sounds ... what's the word ... polyphonic?? The sound keeps going for a long time like a long echoing note. Kind of chant like, sort of human, eerie.


I caught the end of the show, so I don't know the name.

clone11 (sawyerhasbestlines)

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly


The singing dunes weren't hard to locate:

Quote:
A dune can soar to 1000 feet in size and may move across the face of the desert as it loses sand on one side and gains it on the other. Sometimes dunes emit strange sounds as grains of sand move across each other. These are called "singing dunes."

www.pbs.org/sahara/geography/dunes2.htm


But here is an entire article on the phenomenon:

Quote:
A characteristic of some desert dune sands is an ability to emit acoustical energy when disturbed. This phenomenon has been reported from the Middle East for more than 1500 years and in Chinese literature from as early as the ninth century (Stein, 1912). Many people are familiar with the squeaking sounds typically produced when one walks across wetted beach sands. However, sounds produced by desert sand dunes have been variously described as roaring, booming, squeaking, singing, and musical. For the latter description, the results have been compared to such musical instruments as a kettle drum, zither, tambourine, bass violin, and a trumpet (Curzon, 1923). Other more recent observations liken the sounds to a foghorn or low-flying, propellor-driven aircraft (Humphries, 1966).

Singing and Booming Sand Dunes of California and Nevada


The article lists specific sites in those states.


Has anyone actually heard these?!

drabauer

Re: Perhaps we are looking at the map incorrectly


Thanks for the update.


I've been thinking about it for days, and my brain is intertwining the bullroar, singing dunes, and meditation chanting.


I'm wondering if certain sounds can incuce a meditation/trance state. If so, people can be open to suggestion, hypnosis, and possibly this could explain the hallucinations.


Something about sounds from that can come from various natural and manmade sources that are similar sounding to chanting or long repetitious, drawn out monotonal noises; and the combination of low frequency to produce an alpha state? (This is still a muddled thought.)

clone11 (sawyerhasbestlines)

drabauer