You are three men of sin, whom Destiny,
That hath to instrument this lower world
And what is in't, the never-surfeited sea
Hath caused to belch up you; and on this island
Where man doth not inhabit; you 'mongst men
Being most unfit to live. I have made you mad;
And even with such-like valour men hang and drown
Their proper selves.
The Tempest. Act iii. Sc. 3
Putting this here as it is not so much a theory (though a little in part
it is) as an observation.
Since the beginning of the show, I've noticed the apparent disconnect
between what is occurring on the island and how the survivors react to
those occurrences. The first glaring example of this is the ill-fated
redshirt Joanna. Only Boone and Jack went out after her; of the rest,
only Charlie seemed interested in what was going on. Even after Boone
was dragged back (the first Boone beating, albeit mostly psychosocial?),
no one else went to help Jack.
Other instances have been noted and discussed by several; exploring the
island, setting up perimeters/defense/lookouts, investigating Danielle,
the cable, the Black Rock, Brendan, Claire, the front half of the plane,
Locke and Boone and the hatch, the stobor, and so on. The most recent
example was the last episode at the very beginning. Michael is looking
for Walt, yelling for him in fact when Charlie comes up to him.
Michael: "Have you seen my son?"
Charlie: "Have you seen Claire's bags?"
Michael: "Have you seen my son?"
Charlie: "Have you seen Claire's bags?"
Now, in most social situations, with a good possibility of danger present,
a child being looked for is more important than luggage. If this were
an isolated incident, you would be right in saying its just Charlie being
an insensitive junkie ex-rock god, but I believe this is a pattern.
Something, either within the makeup of each and every survivor, or in
my opinion something to do with the island itself, is causing everyone
to behave in this manner. Its as if they lose interest in their surroundings
and it takes an immediate threat or a tie-in to their own personal past
to get them even remotely involved.
I don't think this is an unintended by-product of having the writing chores
broken up amongst 3 people - I think this IS part of the plot. This behavior
we are seeing is intentional.
Well, that's all I have put together for now - putting this out there
mostly to get holes punched into it or have better ideas grafted onto
it.
Oh - for those frustrated of late with the episodes, sorry 'bout that,
but I think the issues you are having with the storylines are tied into
this behavior and the past few eps have been a setup for the reveal. Just
a thought.
ChanceGardener
Good observation. I thought that was pretty callous of Charlie too....
everyone seems self-absorbed... dazed. They shouldn't be in shock anymore...
wonder what is up?
bzyhnds
chance - i've had the same thought. I've even posted something like it
in another thread... the characters are not acting consistently with who
we are shown they are in flashbacks and in occassional moments of clarity.
This seems to be bad writing, but, could be an affect of the island or
something on it. Maybe it has to do with "the sickness". Or
maybe we are just really wanting to believe in jj and company. I hope
you are right.
morbius76
I have posted elsewhere that I have thought there was something just 'not
quite right' about the survivors. I couldn't put my finger on it but something
just wasn't ringing true about it all.
No..not that they are all dead or have been taken over by aliens or anything
like that..they just seem.. not normal in some way. They don't react to
things the way people in the real world would have reacted or as they
apparently would have were they in back in civilization. Reminds me of
those beautiful people who lived above ground in "TheTime Machine'.
Forgot what they were called. They lived in a paradise but they just...existed.
Maybe its that so called 'infection' taking hold.
Concerning the scene with Walt and Charlie..for some reason I assumed
that Walt was always wandering off and Michael looking for him was a constant
thing. It was like a crying wolf kind of thing...I didn't get that it
was any big emergency.
elfdream
Wow, this needs to move to the Theory Thread.
We know something magnetic is going on. Could it be interfering with electric
impulses in the brain???? Is the sickness prolonged exposure to this?
Quick, where are doctors and scientists?
Wynter Zera
Chance, I've done my best to dismiss you as just another pretty face but...
*sigh* it's useless, wasted effort, I see.
Anyway...
For the first few episodes I explained away much of the artificiality
of our survivors' reactions as simple shock. After all, very few people
would bounce back to normalcy after a plane crash, no matter how superficial
the physical injuries they sustained.
This explanation wears thin after a while, obviously. I like yours much
better.
I really really hope you are right!
azteclady
If this isn't the case, I hope TPTB make a visit to Lost-TV,
and make it so. It wouldn't definitely explain a lot.
Hodgepodge
this is interesting, and thank you chance for helping me put my finger
on what has been irking me about most of the characters.
TheGZA
Not sure if this is the right spot for this or not, but I can't understand
why they haven't gotten a posse of people together to go hunt down the
Frenchwoman after Sayid came back and told them about her. I think it
was mentioned once that they have to go find her, but never acted upon.
She's got guns, maps, some kind of strange cable to the ocean, some kind
of primitive power supply, knowledge of the island, etc. etc. I just don't
see why they wouldn't want to immediately go and find her to minimally
learn more about their situation on the island.
Boar Hunter 1
This is just the kind of example I mean BH. Of course, how much info has
Sayid given out regarding Dani? Yet another symptom - hoarding/not sharing
info about things going on.
Again, unless the threat is immediate - Dani walking into camp with her
rifle - the survivors forget about it.
The behavior being shown is almost exactly like herd behavior. Watch a
herd of animals. Fairly passive, individuals may be focused on something
in their immediate area/circumstance for a time, but then go back to just
grazing, only reacting when something is hunting them and once the threat
is gone, or a member of the herd is taken, they go back to grazing yet
again.
Come to think of it, the rabbits in Watership Down exhibit the same type
of behavior, especially the ones in the "kept" warren.
Other than herd mentality, not sure what else to call the survivors behavior.
Not quite narcissistic, not quite sociopathic, definitely self-centered,
but not normal would I consider any of them at this point.
ChanceGardener
I'm gonna get overly general... I'm tired and can't think straight.
If you look carefully at all of the main characters, they're all outcasts
and loners, for one reason or another. Many of them are self-centered
and have reasons not to trust others. Their backstories show them not
to be team players (for the most part).
Jack~ "outcast" because of tattle-taling on his father, etc.
But, he seems the most interested in what happens with other. Contrast
this with:
Kate~ a criminal who has been on the run for sometime and has grown accustomed
to lying and looking out for herself. She seems shy to draw near anyone.
Charlie~ a recovering druggy ex-rock god... Of everyone, he seems more
interested in others, but has a pile of emotional baggage; makes it harder
to look at others that way.
Sawyer~ been accused of and labelled as a thief, etc.etc. from the beginning.
Former con-man...
Sayid~ a former intelligence office with a history of hiding information
going back to Nadia. We seem to find out what he is revealing about Danielle
incidentally or when he is confronted about her.
Hurley~ He seems to have the best heart in the bunch and most interested
in other... I don't remember him being around when there was the drowning
incident.
Anyways... I could continue... But, as I said, we have a group of highly
indivualistic people, with reasons and histories of not working *with*
others, but using or hiding from others, who are stuck in a situation
where they should be doing teamwork... Something I am sure which will
not come naturally.
As for the red-shirts... meh... in real life, somebody's drowning at a
beach, how many folks will take the initiative to try and save them? Especially
if someone is already trying...? We get to see a lot of "someone
else will take care of it" in real life... Why would it be that different
on the island?
Ferret Dragon
I thought it was kind of strange that after they found Charlie nobody
was actively searching for Claire anymore. Some assumed that was what
Locke and Boone were doing but it seemed that they would have organized
a party to actively search for her and explore the island for days, especially
now that they knew there were others. Its like they would mention Claire,
be sad, and go back to what they were doing. Weird.
Also Kate said to Sawyer once, "As one outcast to another, I'd put
out a little more effort" I thought it was strange at the time because
she's not really an outcast on the island. I think she knew Sawyer before
the crash. One time when she jumped him, he told her he'd made that birthday
wish 4 years ago.
jaklynrose
First of all - Aztec, where have you been? Didn't you know Chance is one
of the brightest people on this board? Yes, he is a pretty face and oozes
with charm, but there's also a brain inside.
Wynter: You're right. This should move to theories so I'm moving it.
And Chance - this is something I've been thinking for a very long time,
but for some reason never thought to put into an actual thought. Maybe
I'm a victim of the same plot device.
JG (getting lazy... another sympton)
JacksGirlfriend
Perhapt it fits in with 'The Eye' theorie. Flashbacks are seen from their
own perspective, just as on the island. Perhaps it is about some individuels
or something.
RWPR
"Could one become a accidental zombie?"
What do you think - can Tesla (NON-hertzian) waves be used to influence
to peoples thoughts? If your answer is yes, go to next paragraph immediately,
else - please "jump" to "Tesla waves" article.
Undoubtedly, perchancely or purposely, mind ascendancy could be a way
to very efficient mind control!!!
Briefly, we can say that official science offers us a fact that EM spectrum
ends with a long radio waves band, with the largest wavelength of about
104 meters ! ... What is beyond that range ? ...
We know about "brain" EM waves e.g, but their maximal frequency
is about 10 Hz, the wavelength of so called "alfa waves" is
about 3*107 m, but - that is quite far from the end of the long radio
waves range ... Classical science does not have a correct answer as to
what is in this EM spectrum "hole" !
However, EDQ model with some kind of (multidimensional) "Periodic
Table of the Elements", offers us a reasonable ansver. If you still
suspect that Tesla (NON-hertzian) waves exist, we suggest that you read
"Nikola Tesla Patenti II", Zavod za udzbenike i nastavna sredstva,
Beograd, 1996.g. page 413. In Nikola Tesla's own words:
"... It is too noted that the phenomenon here involved in the transmission
of electrical energy is one of TRUE CONDUCTION AND IS NOT TO BE CONFOUNDED
WITH THE PHENOMENA OF ELECTRICAL RADIATION which have heretofore been
observed and which from the very nature and mode of propagation would
render practically IMPOSSIBLE THE TRANSSMISION OF ANY APPRECIABLE AMOUNT
OF ENERGY TO SUCH DISTANCES as are of practical importance. ..."
Obviously, Nikola Tesla accentuates that his "energy-transfer-waves"
ARE NOT HERTZIAN !!!
Unfortunately, a lot of scientists disregard this fact ...
As one can see from the EM spectrum picture, according to the EDQ model,
Tesla waves are located in the wavelength area between of 103 to 108 meters.
Tesla's certifiably great accomplishments, as well as accuracy of our
Model, can be illustrated with Tesla's Canadian Patent 142,352 - "Art
of Transmitting Electrical Energy through the natural Mediums", citing:
"... It is necessary to employ oscillations in which the rate of
radiation of energy into space IN THE FORM OF HERTZIAN OR ELECTROMAGNETIC
WAVES IS VERY SMALL. To give an idea, I would say that the frequency should
be smaller than twenty thousand per second, though shorter waves might
be practicable. The lowest frequency would appear to be six per second,
in which case there will be but one node, at or near the ground-plate,
and paradoxical as it may seem, the EFFECT WILL INCREASE WITH THE DISTANCE
and will be greatest in a region ..."
Frequency of 20 KHz corresponds to a wavelength of 1.5*104 m, and 6 Hz
can be expressed as 5*107 m. which proves that Nikola Tesla's experimental
wavelength range recommendation is almost identical to the EDQ model predictions!
It is obvious that "Tesla-waves-band" OVERLAP "Mind-waves-area"
in the range of few Hz. Consequently low frequency EM waves could interfere
with brain waves and affect to peoples thoughts...
Do you know What is HAARP? It is the High Frequency Active Auroral Research
Project being developed by the U.S. Air Force and Navy in Alaska.It focuses
beams of energy on the ionosphere, about hundred kilometers above earth,
using specific network of 180 antennas, with total power of almost four
million (3,500,000 W) watts !!!
Why?
Scientists say - to provide our government with a communications system
to reach submarines and to provide earth-penetrating tomography - searching
for underground tunnels and missile sites by special electronic frequencies,
etc. Maybe - but, I think that this is not theirs finite goast. Moreower,
seems that Project staff members are playing with "things" and
energies they don't fully understand. Anyway, we should be worry about
the level of intensity of the microwaves beaming to the stratosphere as
well as deep into the earth. Will those experiments make "additive"
holes in the ionosphere;...; whether our current heavy storms could be
the result of HAARP experiments...
As a curiosity one can note that the electromagnetic component of ultralow-frequency
"brain-waves", measured by electroencephalogram (EEG), are classified
in five types (alfa, beta, gama, ..., waves) of frequencies. For instance
"alfa" waves have frequency of 8 - 13 Hz, while "theta"
waves (e.g.) have freqncy lower than 0.3 Hz ... As we know, the Schumann
Resonances are electromagnetic, quasi standing, wave that exist in ionosphere
cavity. They seem to be related to electrical activity in the atmosphere,
particulary during times of intense lightning activity. They occur at
several frequencies between 6 and 50 Hz, specifically 7.8, 14, 20, 26,
33, 39 i 45 Hz...
Certainly a tight tie between earth's own deep energies and the magnetism
of the earth's ionosphere suggests a sinister manipulation of the earth's
atmosphere. Likewise, there ia a tight tie between Schumann Resonances
and "brain-waves" spectrum also!
And
Teslion as Tesla's waves quant carrier illustration
According to EDQ and EOU models' propositions, there is an analogy between
(a number of) different radiation ranges and (a number of) basic stable
corpuscles. Moreover, in considering Hypothesis 3, the speed of light
is quite reachable for objects with a real remaining mass (m0) and a Photon
(e.g. as a quant carrier of classical "Hertzian" EM waves),
being a stable object of order 8 (H1/EDQ model), with m0 = 1.6*10- 38
kg, and an associated compton wavelength: lc=1.35*10-4 [m].
Just like a photon, Teslion is a corpuscular form of "matter state",
expressed in our Unity as a stable object of order 9, with a quite real
rest mass: m0 = 1.1*10- 49 kg. Wave form of the same object, named Tesla
waves, have compton wavelength of lc=2*107 [m], i.e. frequency of 14.8
Hz. As we know, frequency of 11.47 Hz is already known as a Tesla's frequency.
This fact was a basic reason for naming "stable-object-9" a
TESLION.
For now, all details are exposed only in the "Serbian version",
but will be accessible in the English very soon. Briefly, here we can
introduce one very interesting detail.
Peak energy level of a K9-object, whose wave form of "space-time-matter"
entity we called Tesla waves, is l = lc * (1-v2/vmax2)1/2 = 20.04*106*0.037
= 741480 m, which corresponds to frequency of 404.59 Hz. As we know, most
of "zero point", "free energy", and all different
kinds of "overunity" devices (Thomas Moray Radiant device, Floyd
Sweet VTA,...,Michel Mace Solid state energy converter etc.) provide maximal
output energy with current whose frequency is about 400 Hz! Amazingly,
"Earth - radius - resonant - length" is Rp = 6.38*106 * 3.14
= 2.004*107 m, which is almost equal to Tesla-waves compton wavelength:lc=2*107
[m].
One of fairly "Earth-resonant" devices is Milan Mancich' "HF
Transformer", which he presented in J.L. Naudin's "JLN Labs".
His transformer has 1000 turns on diam = 50 mm, meaning that the used
wire length of about 345 m. This is very close to l/2 (as all commercial
Hertzian EM wave - antennas have) of Tesla-waves compton wavelength "projected
here" ("inside our unity" - precise information is presented
in the EOU model), which is equal to: l*(1/2)*RIV/RIII = 741480/2/1056
= 351.08 m! It is obvious that Milan's transformer is resonant to Earth
as well as to Tesla waves.
Our theoretical investigations demonstrated that Tesla waves (until now,
better known as Tesla's Non-Hertzian waves) are presumably another name
for the "Evanescent mode" (see: Superluminal signal velocity,
G.Nimtz, Ann. Phys. (Leipzig) 7 (199 7-8, 618-624; "Evanescent modes
are not necessarily Einstein causal", Eur.Phys.J.B 7,523-525(1999),
and/or Mr. Tom Bearden's "Scalar waves"). Moreover, in our opinion,
Tesla waves can be a basic "free" energy "transfer - carriers"
in a sense of "outside - inside" energy transformations (according
to EOU model, both are "parts" of the same multidimensional
Reality)!!!
To illustrate that EDQ/EOU models' predictions are not random, we can
apply the same Model "mechanism" on Mr. Greg Watson's PMOD device,
for example. From the picture below, we can see that the "damped
wave" period time is t = 9.4*10-8 sec, hence frequency is f = 10.63
MHz and the wavelength is l = 28.2 m. According to EDQ model, the associated
compton wavelength is lc = 1.04 m. It sounds fascinating that the coil
used in this experiment (L1) has 40 turns on the core with a diameter
= 9 mm, which means that wire length is 1.13 m. Furthermore, signal period
(with or without the magnet) has the same value T = 3.7*10-6 sec, or frequency
f = 270 kHz. If we "project" this frequency "there",
and then "look" at it from "here", according to EDQ/EOU
models, we obtain: f = 270*103*1056*0.037 = 10.5 MHz. As we already noted,
oscilloscope picture shows REAL signal frequency of f = 10.61 Mhz, which
is very close to the model-expected value of 10.5 MHz.
In Mr. Milan Mancich' experiment, input frequency was 200 Khz and, according
to EDQ/EOU model, "overunity" output signal frequency should
be: f = 200*103:1056*0.037 = 7 Hz. As we can see on the scope picture
given below, real "tapped-signal" frequency is about 28 Hz,
which is a "doubled" Tesla wave (compton wavelength) frequency!
An almost unbelievable fact is Mr. Mancich' announcement that his "Earth-Tesla
wave" HF transformer with ferrite core is resonant at f = 5.1 KHz.
If we use previous relation without "overunity" transformation,
we obtain: f = 200*103:1056:0.037 = 5.118 KHz !!!
Without prompting for a conclusion, we can suggest the idea that Milan
Mancich reached some kind of "Overunity" effects, because of
a great similarity between his "HF transformer" construction
parameters and "Earth dimensions", which are both resonant with
the frequency matching the Tesla wave frequency range. In the case of
Mr. Greg Watson's PMOD experiment this condition was not satisfied, as
he works with classical Hertzian EM waves, and his PMOD is NOT "OverUnity"
in itself (but is intended to show how one of the necessary elements of
a solid state OverUnity power system can be built). Unlike him, Mr Mancich
succeeded to "get" Tesla waves in his scope. In our opinion,
these waves are "topsy turvy" Hertzian EM waves. Please compare
pictures given below:
GW.PMOD efect M.Mancich Teslian waves
What science say about M.Mancich "resonant rise" waves?
Official science does not comment on "unconventional,..., alternative"
physics devices, such as most "overunity" are. One of very rare
yet certainly competent opinions is Mr. Jean Lous Naudin's depiction of
Mr M.Mancich Photo:
"Yes, this is a pure NON LINEAR oscillation of bucking fields. This
is produced by the high speed magnetic flux compression in the bifilar
coil during the collapse of the inductance. In a bifilar coil, at the
moment of the current begin to flow, the inductance of the first coil
is max and drops very quickly to zero at the permanent regime. So, the
coil energy is released very quickly WITHOUT a link to the source, this
is a very interesting effect to explore, because this generates a NON
RECIPROCAL EFFECT of the energy flow."
Similar is an explanation of non-linear oscillations, achieved in G.Watson's
Pulse Magnetic Overunity Device, owing the effect to using ferrite H (magnetic
field) to B (B = m (permeability) * H) phase (time) shift (according to
Mr. G.Watson's explanation: "... It should be noted that the short
current drive pulse DOES NOT (should not) result in any back EMf from
the ferrite as the ferrite can't reach fast enough (the phase shift of
the B field) ...".
Both interpretations allude to very fast and narrow pulses, which produce
substantial associations to Mr. Nimtz's "Evanescent mode" signals,
suggesting that our supposition about Evanescent mode signals and Tesla
waves equivalence is probably correct.
So, we can say: "Ok, science indeed allows" for some kind of
"Superluminal velocities", as well as for "overunity"
effects, even in the case of classical EM waves; but, viewing the above
photos,
...One can notice that the "right wave" seems just like a "TIME
REVERSED" left wave ...
which means that our EDQ / EOU models' postulates (such as that Tesla
waves are "topsy turvy" Hertzian EM waves) are quite OK! ...
Official science offers us a fact that EM spectrum ends with a long radio
waves band, with the largest wavelength of about 104 meters ! ... What
is beyond that range ? ...
We know about "brain" EM waves e.g, but their maximal frequency
is about 10 Hz, the wavelength of so called "alfa waves" is
about 3*107 m, but - that is quite far from the end of the long radio
waves range ... Classical science does not have a correct answer as to
what is in this EM spectrum "hole" !
However, EDQ model, with some kind of (multidimensional) "Periodic
Table of the Elements", offers us a reasonable answer. If you still
suspect that Tesla waves exist, we suggest that you read "Nikola
Tesla Patenti II", Zavod za udzbenike i nastavna sredstva, Beograd,1996.g.
page 413. In Nikola Tesla's own words:
"... It is too noted that the phenomenon here involved in the transmission
of electrical energy is one of TRUE CONDUCTION AND IS NOT TO BE CONFOUNDED
WITH THE PHENOMENA OF ELECTRICAL RADIATION which have heretofore been
observed and which from the very nature and mode of propagation would
render practically IMPOSSIBLE THE TRANSMISSION OF ANY APPRECIABLE AMOUNT
OF ENERGY TO SUCH DISTANCES as are of practical importance. ..."
Obviously, Nikola Tesla accentuates that his "energy-transfer-waves"
ARE NOT HERTZIAN !!!.
As one can see from the EM spectrum picture on the previous page, according
to the EDQ model, Tesla waves are located in the wavelength area between
of 103 to 108 meters. Tesla's certifiably great accomplishments, as well
as accuracy of our Model, can be illustrated with Tesla's Canadian Patent
142,352 - "Art of Transmitting Electrical Energy through the natural
Mediums", citing:
"... It is necessary to employ oscillations in which the rate of
radiation of energy into space IN THE FORM OF HERTZIAN OR ELECTROMAGNETIC
WAVES IS VERY SMALL. To give an idea, I would say that the frequency should
be smaller than twenty thousand per second, though shorter waves might
be practicable. The lowest frequency would appear to be six per second,
in which case there will be but one node, at or near the ground-plate,
and paradoxical as it may seem, the EFFECT WILL INCREASE WITH THE DISTANCE
and will be greatest in a region ..."
Frequency of 20 KHz corresponds to a wavelength of 1.5*104 m, and 6 Hz
can be expressed as 5*107 m. which proves that Nikola Tesla's experimental
wavelength range recommendation is almost identical to the EDQ model predictions!
This fact in itself should be a good reason for one to re-read this article
...
Wynter Zera
"disconnect"
That's a good word to describe it.
There are a lot of things that don't add up. Sometimes I feel like it's
kind of the way I dream.
I suppose it could just be horrible continuity, but this show is so well
done in every other aspect, I can't see them falling short on continuity.
They know we're gonna pick stuff apart...so they have to be doing this
on purpose.
I've wondered about lots of things that fall into this category.
dagdaj
Now Wynter, how are we supposed to digest all that?
Please summarize!
drabauer
Sorry, but you'll have to get one of the scientist types to explain most
of it. I only have a vauge understanding of what they're saying. Always
feed your scientists.
Wynter Zera
Chance - When you pop in, read what Wynter posted and tell me what it
said, okay?
JacksGirlfriend
Tesla was one of the most misunderstood scientists of his age. He beat
Edison at his own game, beat Marconi to the punch on radio, but lost in
the end to both due to a combination of his neuroses and his poor skill
at marketing his ideas and himself, relegating him to the conspiracy/fringe
pile of history.
His understanding of electricity and of the ways to produce it have been
matched by few since. As a consideration, the U.S. government still has
the documents removed from the rooms in which he died classified top secret
and they do not release them even with FOIA requests. You may have heard
stories of his 'death ray' and similar apparati, but his main goal for
the last decade or so of his life was the wireless transmission of power.
Apparently he died never succeeding, though he had made some interesting
progress.
One of the things Tesla developed was a way to generate electricity with
different waveform patterns. The problem with current methods of power
generation is the rapid attenuation of power over distance due to resistance
of the medium the power is transferred through - obviously much greater
in atmosphere, but still there are significant drops using electrical
friendly conductors. In fact, the heart of most power transmission is
done by pumping up the frequency of the electricity to the megahertz range
just to reduce the amount of power loss (the higher the frequency, the
more the current 'rides' the surface of a conductor, instead of travelling
through the conductor); even with that, a large percentage of the power
has been lost in transmission before even getting to your house.
Which brings us back to Tesla. He was working on creating a different
method of propagating energy by a different method (the non-Hertzian wave
mentioned in the article) than using radio frequency transmission. As
mentioned in the article, the frequencies that Tesla seemed to be working
with bear an uncanny similarity to the range of human brainwave activity.
Now, one of the things with waves is transference - the behavior or pattern
of one wave can influence/modify another wave. The gist of the article
as far as I can tell, these Tesla waves could affect brain wave activity,
to the extent of altering behavior or perhaps even memories. I would reason
the process being Controller A 'thinks' what he wants planted in a subjects
mind, these thoughts are pumped through a device that sends out Tesla
waves and transmits them into Subject B's brain, causing behavioral changes,
hallucinations, false memories and so on.
So, an even tighter summary: someone(s), using technology predicated on
classified Tesla research, is/are using their thought machines on the
people on the island - they're not really survivors, but test subjects
who've been made to think they're survivors. Their behavior seems disjointed
because there is more than one controller, or because they go into a kind
of auto-pilot mode if they are not getting direct input, only a carrier
wave from the Tesla device. Perhaps this explains the 'voices' that are
heard. Why Danielle is not as susceptible (her bunker limits/restricts
the waveforms).Why they don't keep looking for Claire, and so on.
This would make it possible for the island to be a 'real' island - our
survivors just are made to 'think' it is uncharted. This possible theory
would also combine elements of 'its all a dream' theories and hard pseudo-scientific
Scully explanations in one fell swoop. For instance, the wave perhaps
allows the receiver to occasionally send if their thoughts are strong
enough - this could allow Jack to 'think' Charlie back to life, overriding
the controller's 'Charlie has been hung to death' thought.
At least, that is what I get from WZ's post.
ChanceGardener
JG:
Quote:
---------------------------
And Chance - this is something I've been thinking for a very long time
. . ..
---------------------------
While you were thinking about, did you consider that emotional disconnect often manifests in conjunction with personality orders, hmm?
NeillT006
Sure, but usually that manifests as inappropriate emotional response to
a situation - like going into a crying jag at a normally happy event,
or utter fear over the 'I got your nose' trick.
They don't seem to have problems with their emotions though. I mean look
at Kate; her body language with Jack, Sawyer, Sayid, and too some extent
Charlie seems to radiate with some kind of combo of desire/need/want in
various proportions with each of them. From what we've seen of Kate so
far, I currently suspect she is used to using her sexuality to blind/deceive
the men around her for her own plans/needs/desires. (Where do I sign up
for that trip???)
Guess what I am thinking is that their emotional behavior doesn't seem
to be off at this point - just their psycho-social ones. Perhaps that's
a hairsplit, but that's my take at this point.
ChanceGardener
I think it may explain Ethan's odd behavior, the whispers, and moments
of metal haze. I don't think something maybe controlling them to do things,
just that something maybe using this method to hide things from them.
I do think it's an actual island that is void of civilization, but I think
whatever is odd could be part of some kind of experiment. Therefore, the
monster is an illusion, survivors see things that aren't there, (could
it cause the plane crash?)ect. I donÕt think the writers have some
massive conspiracy going and that the survivors are test subjects, but
I do think they have accidentally stumbled into something and are suffering
the consequences of being around it.
Quote:
---------------------------
While you were thinking about, did you consider that emotional disconnect
often manifests in conjunction with personality orders, hmm?
---------------------------
Not everyone on the plane can be unstable. That would be too much of a coincidence.
Wynter Zera
So a tie-in to a sort of Philadelphia Experiment?
ChanceGardener
Quite possibly. More from here Click
click
The young Serbian discovered the principle that drives almost every practical
use of electricity today, the rotating magnetic field. The field is what
powers generators and all forms of electrical motors. Although the generator
had already been discovered, it was Tesla who figured out why it worked.
Tesla's understanding of the rotating magnetic field led him to develop
groundbreaking ideas about how to use alternating current, and one of
his first inventions was the induction motor, a powerful device powered
by AC. Tesla had big dreams of the mad scientist variety, including flying
machines and other more sinister deals. As everyone knows, there's only
so far a mad scientist can go in Croatia, so in 1884, it was off to America!
Tesla worked for Thomas Edison briefly, but mad scientists aren't widely
known as team players, and the relationship was a bust. He was bought
out by Westinghouse in 1885, when the titan of industry bought his patents
for AC-driven motors. The first thing Westinghouse did with the technology
was put Edison's DC-powered gadgets out of business. That's gratitude
for you.
Tesla set up shop on his own and began inventing things, such as specialized
lighting and a precursor to the X-ray machine. He liked to wow the marks
by running electrical current through his body to light lamps. He was
that kind of guy. This sort of behavior made him popular at high school
assemblies and Masonic lodges.
In 1891, Tesla became a U.S. citizen, which as we all know is a free ticket
to megalomania. He started to dream bigger. Within a few years, he was
building massive hydroelectric generators powered by Niagara Falls. He
invented the first remote control, and began researching wireless communications.
Around the turn of the century, Telsa made he considered his most im
portant discovery even though no one has ever heard about it, it isn't discussed in classrooms, and it doesn't appear to have any practical applications except for James Bond villains.
They were called terrestrial stationary waves, and what that basically
means is that you can a) transmit electrical current using the Earth as
a conductor, and b) you can cause the Earth to vibrate on a frequency,
much like a tuning fork. I'm sure you can see where this is going. Try
to name five non-mad-scientist uses for such a discovery. Powering streetlights
without wires? Yeah, OK, that's pretty cool. Beaming lethal destruction
around the globe? Whoops! Manipulating the weather? Controlling earthquakes?
Tesla saw great possibilities for his TS waves, including creating a worldwide
integrated system of centralized control and distribution electronics,
stock tickers and all manner of not-yet-invented communications technology,
with provisions for secretly encrypted point-to-point transmissions. It
was around this time that the government began to really take an interest
in Nikola Tesla.
In his quest to test the limits of the terrestrial waves, Tesla began
a period of extensive experimentation. during which he developed the Tesla
Coil, a method for delivering high-voltage current which is still used
in many TVs and other applications today.
Using the coil, Tesla asked himself: If the Earth can conduct
electricity, and the electricity vibrates around the world in waves through
the planet, just how much electricity can the Earth hold? A reasonable
question! He could think of no better way to answer that question than
by dumping as much electricity as he could generate into the ground, just
to see what would happen.
Many a bad science fiction movie has opened with this sort of premise.
Fortunately, the outcome of Tesla's tests were more of an inconvenience
than a cataclysmic world-ending event. Well, depending on your perspective
anyway.
The area around his experiement became electrified, but not enough to
kill anyone, and there was some very impressive bolts of man-made lightning
which stopped when he blew up the town's generator and caused a blackout
over several miles.
There might have been one other small side effect. At almost exactly
the same time that this experiment was taking place, a mysterious explosion
rocked a remote section of Siberia, to the tune of about a 15-megaton
blast (40 years before the first Atomic Bomb test). The explosion has
never been satisfactorily explained, although it is commonly dismissed
as a meteor or comet impact (a claim which doesn't quite add up with the
measured damage on the scene). Interestingly, Tesla had claimed
he was trying to use to wave to send a communication to an Arctic expedition
that can supposedly be located along a straight line path between Tesla's
lab and the site of the explosion.
During all this, Tesla was also pushing ahead with his investigation
of the uses of radio waves, particularly to remotely control robotic devices,
an area in which the Serbian made great breakthroughs. His research into
radio either ran parallel to Guglielmo Marconi, or Marconi ripped him
off. The outcome was that Tesla was gipped out of the Nobel Prize in favor
of Marconi, who won the official title of "inventor of radio"
in the history books. Tesla's inventions and discoveries also formed the
basis of modern robotics, radar, most forms of wireless communications,
loudspeakers and more. Few of these breakthroughs are credited to the
inventor, even today.
As lousy in business as he was talented in science, Tesla sank into bankruptcy
and many of his projects went down with him. For years, he struggled to
get by and bring his ideas to fruition, but his ideas had taken a turn
toward the decidedly strange. He became obsessed with interplanetary communication,
for which he was derided (even though, years later, his work is now integral
to space exploration and the search for intelligent life in the universe).
He also began to make some interesting claims about his abilities and
the power of his inventions. He told people he possessed the scientific
wherewithal to split the Earth in two, and he told the New York Times
he had invented a death ray which he called the "teleforce,"
which could melt an airplane's engine from a range of 250 miles. The
Times, noting the massive spending on defense and military issues in the
build-up toward World War II, pointed out that on a cost-benefit basis
(and based on Tesla's track record), it was well worth the risk of failure
to fund the project. Nevertheless, the "teleforce" was never
adopted... publicly.
The "teleforce" claim would haunt the United States
for decades to come. According to Tesla, he had designed a system through
which a series of beam transmitters could create an impenetrable energy
shield around the country. Starting to sound familiar? It was the first
"Star Wars" proposal, and Tesla's claims (never verified publicly)
formed the blueprint for almost all future discussions of the "Strategic
Defense Initiative."
Tesla was clearly ahead of his time, a problem which would haunt his entire
career. His inventions and patents for remote operation of robotic devices,
for instance, were stunningly advanced but largely ignored at the time.
The military inexplicably failed to understand the usefulness
of remote-controlled attack vehicles and torpedoes until after Tesla's
patents had expired. Even then, they began researching it over
from scratch, rather than working with his established techniques.
The end result was military technology nearly identical to Tesla's inventions,
but developed literally decades later and at many times the cost. Tesla
never made a dime off of the discovery of the radio-controlled automation
that today is the basis of a multibillion dollar aerospace specialty,
responsible for the CIA drone assassin planes used in the War on Terrorism,
and in every generation of the Mars lander probes.
After his death in 1943, the FBI raided Tesla's home and seized
all of his scientific notes, to the tune of hundreds of pages. While a
pretty fascist act, it's kind of understandable in light of his claims.
Tesla's heirs eventually won the release of some of the material, but
it's unknown how much is still classified or "lost." Conspiracy
theorists are enamored of Tesla for obvious reasons, and there is a lot
of speculation about that "death ray" and other aspects of his
research.
One of the most popular theories is that Tesla's terrestrial stationary
waves and "death ray" research form the basis of the HAARP Project,
an alleged top-secret U.S. government experiment to control the weather
and beam fiery death from the skies against enemies of the state.
Tesla's work is still of broad interest to people who are interested in
death and destruction on a large scale. Members of Japan's Aum cult (notorious
for a sarin gas attack in Tokyo) visited the Tesla Museum looking for
ideas, and members of al Qaeda have allegedly taken an interest as well,
although it appears fertilizer bombs and box cutters are about as much
technology as Osama bin Laden cares about since the incarceration of his
own personal mad scientist, Ramzi Yousef.
Wynter Zera
I have often said it: Tesla rules.
Over half of modern appliances and utilities, both civil and military,
are using devices/concepts he discovered/created.
Were it not for the Edison publicity machine smearing Tesla for decades,
Tesla would be much better known than he is today.
But that's a whole separate thread. On this thread, the cable Sayid found
could be the power source for the generator for the T-waves. Which then
brings me back to part of one of the main plot devices for the book Gallagher's
Glacier instead of sound stair steps as I suggested back in Pin's
sound theory thread, the Tesla device can create EM fields that can lower
objects from the atmosphere; but the control of this process is incomplete
at this time, thus rending the aircraft in 3 pieces as it pulled it down.
All this activity could be indeed part of what is causing the survivors
behavior to be abnormal.
ChanceGardener
Thanks Wynter!
And, ahem Chance, that was MY sonic theory in which you posted about the
"sound stair steps" (tired of the guys getting all the credit
around here!)
drabauer
Okay another psychology thoery shows up in this wonderful show. The theory
of diffusion of responsibility. This theory states that the more people
witnessing an emergency the lower the chance of a positive outcome. The
psychologists that thought up this theory were Latane and Darley. It has
been proven as a very valid theory in many cases and I think this is why
people are acting so seperate in such instances as the drowning and the
issue of Dani. It also comes into play when Jack is trapped in the cave.
Even though many people help get him out there was very few people around
when the incident first occured. The only one around was Chalie and he
got a party up to help. Not sure if Hurley was around then. Just a thought.
Notslar
Quote:
-----------------------------------
I have often said it: Tesla rules.
-----------------------------------
Amen! The man gets no credit. He also experimented with time travel, anti gravity, and stuff. Theorists would do well to study him.
Wynter Zera
D, I am so so so so sorry. It was not my intent to slight you, but rather,
as the initiator of that thread, give you the kudos you so rightly and
so richly deserve.
Color me embarrassed and accept my offer of apology: wanna spank me?
ChanceGardener
Quote:
-----------------------------------
Not everyone on the plane can be unstable. That would be too much of a
coincidence.
-----------------------------------
Wynter:
And I'm thnking that it is too much of a coincidence for so many on the
plane to be so much in need of something.
NeillT006
elfdream - they were called the Eloi. Maybe what's in the hatch
is a Morlock-type civilization. Ethan is a genetically alterred Morlock,
preying on the young of the Eloi-type civilization living on the island.
The food is drugged to lull them into a sense of oblivion.
Remember, Michael wasasking why NOONE was working on a way to actually
get OFF the island.
jeffsoup
I had fun doing some research on Tesla and EM fields. (Who knew that fairies,
when they are invisible, are undetectable in the EM spectrum? And apparently,
if one is intent on killing them, a flame-thrower is the weapon of choice,
but you'd best get them all).
Anyway, thanks Chance and Wynter for posting all the wonderful ideas about
Tesla. What a fascinating character. I wonder if any of this might have
to do with the last scene of Special when Locke says, "You can't
hear everything, Boone. The sooner you learn that, the better." That
line just stood out to me. Maybe there are things going on that they literally
can't hear (or can barely hear) because it's out of the frequency range.
spooky
I think that your point is valid, but only for Charlie.
Sayid is definetely trying to unravel the mystery.
Boone and Locke are focused on experiencing the moment, not on explaining
the mystery in rational terms.
Claire has been out of the picture for awhile.
Shannon, Micheal, Sun, and Hurley have not seen clearcut evidence of the
paranormal.
Walt is a child.
Sawyer and Kate are focused on hiding their pasts.
Charlie's behavior is really weird. You would think that he would be EAGER
to tell Jack and Sayid about his abduction. Instead he sits on the beach
on sulks. I don't get it.
OhioSteve1
quote:
-----------------------------------
Michael: "Have you seen my son?"
Charlie: "Have you seen Claire's bags?"
Michael: "Have you seen my son?"
Charlie: "Have you seen Claire's bags?"
I read the above as a kind of "homage" to a particular type
of (who's on first) historical television banter i.e: three stooges, seinfeld,
abbott & costello, benny hill, etc.
In other words, it's Dom style comedy.
Have you ever watched him in his pre hobbit days? I'm thinking of that
british detective show, where he plays the sidekick to the lady detective.
It's a drama sprinkled with similar back and forth dialogue and humor.
clone11
Well, that's a possibility clone, but I've just got to say that's not
the way it felt to me. And if Charlie is feeling all Abbott & Costello-y,
then shouldn't he be up for talking about Claire and her abduction instead
of getting her bags? He's stoked about finding her luggage, but not her?
That would seem to be another indicator of everyone's disconnect.
Sayid and the maps; granted he is hot to decipher them - but then why
isn't he using them and going back around the island to A.) Map the island
B.) Investigate the area where he heard the voices - notice also how he
seemed almost fearful and nearly denied having heard them when Jack pushed
him about the voices? Sayid was all hot to explore the island to atone
for his sins, but now he'd rather play at codebreaker.
ChanceGardener
Thanks jeffsoup for the help about 'The Time Machine'. It could be when
you have been through trauma like Charlie you may not want to go near
anything that might spark a memory.
I've been through chemotherapy. That's pretty traumatic. For a few months
after chemo ended I didn't want to talk about it, didn't want to think
about it. I didn't want to be around the smell of vinyl which was the
smell of the IV bags the poison was in.
My mom went in the hospitial and while I knew I should put aside my bizarre
memory triggers and visit her it was just so hard to go there and smell
those 'hospital' smells. It triggered really bad memories...
So I can understand if Charlie doesn't want to 'go back' there mentally.
It might be way to painful...even if it did mean it could help Claire.
If they had someone on the island trained in these things maybe they could
help him work it out...but I don't think he would do it on his own.
elfdream
Yet he's jonesing for her bags (I mean luggage, not those bags) and wanting
to read her diary and he talked about her missing and aches for her being
gone, but doesn't seem to do anything about it.
I don't think its his trauma causing his behavior.
ChanceGardener
I thought I'd post a little summary of what I think the salient points
of the Tesla/brain wave stuff. This is of course my just my own opinion
of what's important, but hopefully will provide some clarity for others.
Tesla aside, the space between the ionosphere and the Earth, the Earth
Ionosphere Cavity (EIC) traps electromagnetic waves. Although since the
ionosphere is not a perfect conductor, this occurs only weakly. Certain
resonant frequencies (same idea as resonant frequencies on a guitar string)
are the most efficiently trapped. See
this link for an image of the spectrum. The primary node is at about
8hz and the secondary is at around 14hz. The exact frequency of the nodes
depends on the geometry of the EIC and depends on where you are on the
Earth and can change with thunderstorm activity and sunspot activity or
anything that might affect the ionosphere (as people are afraid that HAARP
does). It has been noticed that human brainwaves are most active at frequencies
in between the EIC nodes. For example, Alpha waves have frequencies between
8-12hz, with the strongest being around 10hz (see this link). There has
been speculation that humans (and other animals I suppose) evolved these
particular brainwave frequencies to avoid interference with the EIC nodes.
Now there appears to be some difference of opinion as the effect of EIC
nodal frequencies on the human brain. Some say that bringing your alpha
waves into harmony with the EIC primary node (such as through meditation)
produces a feeling of well being and relaxation. However, one online
article (from a conspiracy theory mag) states that interference between
the primary EIC node and alpha waves
Quote:
-------------------------------------
will therefore show up as drastic increases in mental disturbance, antisocial
behaviour, psychosomatic conditions and neurological disturbances....
All these factors could be expected to lead to the appearance of "new"
diseases, probably accompanied by a decline in resistance to many
minor infections...(italics added)
Which sounds very much like what's happening to our friends on the island!
While I feel like I should point out that this all comes very much out
of pseudo-science, or at least fringe science, it is nonetheless a very
popular theory that I'm sure Lost's writers are aware of. This fits in
nicely with the idea that the black rock is magnetic and is what caused
Sayid/Locke's compass to point the wrong way. The black rock may be pumping
out EM waves at brainwave frequencies or distorting the EIC to change
the node frequencies in the area around the island.
Prak
Thank you Prak! I really appreciate the summary and links--because this
is my theory exactly! I can finally fall in with a 'camp," so to
speak.
I'm from the upper great lakes region and remember all the furor surounding
the ELF project, so I heard all those conspiracy theories as a kid. Add
that to the fact that with MRIs, you can actually see which areas of the
brain are effected by certain stimuli, there should be enough science
to make the pseudo- part believable (more so than mystical polar bears).
In non-technical terms I hypothesize that the island has certain resonant
frequencies, and prior visitors (Danielle's crew, but likely some before
her) have been experimenting on manipulating and directing these freqencies.
My guess is that the island naturally amplifies these, or those behind
the voices/monster are using the geography of the island to amplify them,
so as to direct images at the castaways. They may or may not be able to
control the outcome (hallucinations such as Boone's seem very personal,
where Ethan's fight with Jack seems to have been "choreographed").
This could be expanded to explain Locke's physical recovery and Claire's
amnesia.
drabauer
I completely agree! It seems like they're so concerned at the moment it's
happening and then they get so easily distracted and forget about it.
I definitely think this has something to do with the "sickness"
of the island. There are even examples of memory loss (whether real or
fake) with Sayid ("it was the wind playing tricks") or Lock
who claims he didn't see anything or Charlie who claims he doesn't remember
anything.
Maggie216
Here's just a very logical reason for why the people on the island are
not trying to chart it, find more water, hunt for boar, or do anything
other than hang out on the beach.
THEY ARE SCARED SH@TLESS OF THE MONSTER
If you crash landed on an island and the first night you were there trees
started moving and noises came from the jungle, would you want to go in
there? If members of your party went searching for other parts of the
plane and came back with a story about a monster eating the pilot, you'd
really want to explore right? I think you would rather hang out in the
open so that nothing could get you and keep close to the water because
you could always dive in and swim if something were to happen. Also, aren't
they still hoping for a plane to fly by or a boat to come? They are paralyzed
by the fear of the monster and also paralyzed by the fear of missing the
boat and not getting saved.
The only person/persons exploring the island are Locke and Boone. Locke
does not fear the monster now that he has looked "it" in the
eye. Boone feels safe with Locke. Jack and the rest of the crew go back
and forth between the caves and the beach. Even the golf course was in
wide open space so that the monster could be spotted. No one feels safe
enough to look around...that's why they don't do anything.
Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Bushwoods
That's a possibility, but then, why aren't they dong anything to protect
themselves?
No shelters.
No barricades.
No apparent guards.
No organized gathering of wood for fires.
Plus our 14 don't seem to mind plunging in and out of the jungle all day
long - Locke, Boone, Kate, Sawyer, anyone going to and from the caves
to the beach.
Further, that shouldn't prevent them from walking around the island -
stobor comes, they hop in the water (course then they get sucked into
the undertow or get eaten by sharks). I don't stay in my house just cause
there might be snarly dogs out there.
I don't think this reason is strong enough to explain their passivity
in general except for when there are strong motivators at play.
ChanceGardener
They do organize to gather wood, it's always two people at a time heading
into the jungle to gather.
The reason they moved up the beach was to find a more sheltered area,
same thing with moving to the caves...it seems protected.
As for guards, there is still no real relationship between everyone, they
still lie to each other. How could anyone trust another to guard them
while they sleep? They do seem to have assigned roles though. Jack is
the doctor and leader, Kate watches over the beach and fires, Hurley is
the information gatherer, Sayid is intelligence (trying to understand
the island), Locke is the hunter, Boone is his helper, Jin is the fisherman,
Sun is the gardner, Michael is a builder (he wants to build a shower and
a boat). That's organzation.
I agree with you that there is a lot of strangeness to their actions.
If put in that situation, I would have grabbed two or three people and
started to walk the exterior of the island, but that's me. We view this
as a story, a grand story, but we also see it as "survivor"
like in that they are castaways. I think that Mark Burnett has made every
American think that if we end up on a deserted island, we first need to
build a fire, then shelter, then find food and water, then build latrines
and other amenities. I just don't think it's that easy. None of them were
prepared for this, it's gonna take more time to adjust.
Bushwoods
quote:
"Yet he's jonesing for her bags (I mean luggage, not those bags)
and wanting to read her diary and he talked about her missing and aches
for her being gone, but doesn't seem to do anything about it.
I don't think its his trauma causing his behavior."
-----------
My significant other and I have been going back and forth on this perplexing
thing too. I see the odd behavior as symptoms of Charlie's addictive personality.
He's replacing one addiction with another: Claire. He was unable to save
her... and himself, therefore, he's obsessing on her stuff - almost fetishizing
it, particularly the diary.
Claire is a sub for his drugs. The diary is a sub for Claire. Reading
her thoughts brings her back to him.
Humor is born in all the muck and dark dank of our souls. It's Charlie's
coping mechanism, it's awkward, and it is bizarre. His "fix"
or fixation is with Claire, not Walt .... therefore nothing matters until
he gets his fix. Hence the not being there for Michael looking for Walt.
Everybody gets freaky and can disassociate under stress. The castaways
have layers of heaping unimaginable stress. Every day is a massive crisis.
If I was nearly murdered, my sense of self preservation would kick in,
and it would be very difficult to motivate me into any kind of action
that would involve bringing me back to the place where I was nearly killed:
Sayid to Danielle's hut, Charlie to hunt for Ethan.
-----------------------------
Then again, my partner's attitude is he would be so pissed off if someone tried to kill him, he'd be back out there as soon as he could, to kill Ethan and save Claire. Then again, he's got 3 blackbelts in the martial arts and I don't.
clone11
Bushwoods,
I fear I must disagree with you here. I don't see organization - I see people doing what they feel like doing, period.
a) The only one who knew about Sun's garden was Kate. Even if we assume
that Jin knew as well, that's two people out of over 40.
b) There are plenty of instances in which people walking around alone
run into other people running around alone - see Sawyer jumping Kate in
"Whatever the case may be." I haven't seen the 'buddy system'
implemented consistently.
c) Precisely because they don't know each other very well, and most specially
because of Ethan's abduction of Claire, it would make sense for the survivors
to organize themselves and get to know each other better (fast), and make
sure plenty of them know what everyone is doing and where.
And while it's obvious that no one there was 'prepared' or expecting to
find themselves in the island, it does make sense for them, after about
three weeks, for at least one person to realize the need to organize themselves
in all ways. Particularly with the monster and the bears and Ethan running
around.
Furthermore, even if we could explain Charlie's behaviour as trauma/shock,
how about the rest of them? In a group of over 40, some of them supposedly
used to dealing with pressure and stress (brain surgeon or Republican
Guard, or con artist, or fugitive of the law anyone?), how come no one
has made sure this organization happens? Other than Jack's speech at the
end of "White Rabbit" and Hurley's cense in "Raised by
Another," what has been done in this direction?
azteclady
quote:
"how come no one has made sure this organization happens?"
------------------------------------------------
Very few people are natural leaders. Most people (not that it's a bad
thing) are sheep and prefer to be led.
Since the show Survivor was alluded to (with Hurley and the pee on his
foot scene) have you noticed on Survivor, that most of the time the leaders
never seem to win the million bucks (except for Ethan ... oohh Ethan soccer
player, hopefully not Ethan Rom). It seems the ones who build the shelters
get voted off after the shelter is built; The ones who get the food are
kept around only as long as they are necessary and then they get voted
off too. Most the alphas and betas get voted off at the get go, but the
one or two who remain eventually get usurped by the remaining omegas who
end up with the cash.
Strangely, it may be smarter for one's long term survival, to do as little
as possible.
clone11
clone,
I find it hard to believe that amond over 40 people, some of them trained
to cope with stress and to lead (Jack at the very least - as the surgeon,
he's the de facto leader of the people around the operating table; and
it could be argued that Sayid may have some training as a leader, as an
officer in the Republican Guard), there's not a single one 'natural leader.'
As far as it being "smarter for one's long term survival, to do as
little as possible," it only holds true if there's someone who does
as much as possible in the short term. Otherwise, no one would be around
to benefit in the long term.
In short, I still think that Chance is right and that something external
is causing this 'disconnect' between the survivors.
azteclady
Well, its been demonstrated that in the long run that altruism, not personal
gain at all costs has the best odds of granting success.
First, the fact that altruism still exists after millenia of civilization
shows its part of our genetic makeup; at what level is open to debate,
but even animals are known to exhibit altruism. Granted, it seems to have
a self-centered connection to it, but nevertheless it exists.
Second, another example supporting this type of behavior is the games
theory Prisoner game. Basically, the way it works, 2 people are given
a choice: burn the other person or not burn them. If both don't burn,
both win. If either burns, the burner wins, burned loses. If both burn,
both lose. Now it turns out there are two good ways to play this game:
best way over the long haul is to never burn. Especially if the players
know the game is going to be repeated over and over. The second best way
is to start not burning, then the next time, do whatever the other player
did. Strangely enough, that strategy tends to produce outcomes where you
as the player don't get burned as often as doing it randomly.
So, what does this mean to the survivors? Even without knowing how trustworthy
each of them are, its better for them to trust each other anyway, as the
results will tend to be in your favor if the actions are in everyone's
favor.
Also, there are enough leader types at present, but they are barely leading
as it were. Granted, most people are sheep in most situations, but I still
have to conclude after nearly a month, monkey curiousity at the very least
should have kicked in. Not mass passivity.
And on the earlier point on the firewood, the only time I saw groups gathering
wood, was when the burned the fuselage. Any other time, I can only recall
singletons with armloads of wood.
And I am not sure the Survivor parallel fully applies here as no matter
what they do, they cannot get voted off. Granted, they could get themselves
executed, or maybe exiled, but not voted off. So the motivational imperative
is different.
As to missing the boat if one was in the woods, I have a hard time believing
that a boat would show up, take off 39 passengers and leave the 40th wandering
in the woods. And leaving Dani and Ethan. "So that everyone then?"
"What? Oh yea, sure, that's all of us. You can go now." Don't
think that is a realistic explanation for a 'worry' they have about not
leaving the beach.
ChanceGardener
Aztec,
Having PTSD, I've got to disagree with you and Chance.
In 1986 I was a student living in Paris. Me and about 200 other people
got tear gassed in response to a bomb that went off. Since then, I've
watched people die from jumping off the world trade center, while standing
on my roof in lower manhattan during 911. The noise of the towers falling
during 911 brought back the the bombs in Paris of 15 years earlier.
In both those instances, I've seen normal people act bizarre because of
PTSD. You can never predict what you THINK your personality will do in
these moments. In fact, it can be quite the opposite of how you've lived
your life and define yourself regardless of profession. People are people
even if they are trained as doctors. Some qualified trained people turn
zombie-like and are completely ineffectual and they are the ones who need
the most therepy. I was surprised to find that "my style of shock"
is to get soldier like, giving orders, making lists, planning and organizing
but in a very detached robotic way. I've seen other people collapse into
a kind of "rapture" of Dyonisian hedonistic pleasure hungry
denial: laughing, drinking, loving... Both responses as if it's the last
day to live.
One thing I know, is there is no way that any of those castaways would
be functioning normally and it's weird to me to have that kind of expectation
for them. It's too super-human and they would "crack" eventually
in some way : physically, emotionally, or psychologically. PTSD doesn't
just go away in 3 weeks.
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Regarding Sayid's republican guard history: It's one thing to be the
one administering the torture; quite another to be the recipient or victim.
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Regarding fires & shelter:
Check the photos of old footage - particularly the episode with Kate and
the bankrobbers. There are images with multiple fires going on at the
beach next to their little tents. I also seem to remember Sawyer's main
function is tending the fire on the beach. When Sayid went on his "walkabout"
Sawyer took over that task. And if the water is clean, it doesn't need
fire to boil it. If they aren't cold, they don't need fires for warmth.
If they aren't cooking (boar) they can eat fruit and sushi to survive.
So they really only need to keep a rescue fire going - that is if the
motivation is to be rescued. I don't think they all share the motivation
to be rescued.
clone11
Chance and aztec,
I'm not disagreeing with the idea that something external may be affecting
the people on the island. I am merely trying to show that human beings
are human beings. And as clone11 said, there is no way to know how they
will react in extreme circumstances.
Like I said in a previous post, I think I would do something different,
but I am not there. The argument that the 40 people aren't organized is
not quite true. We only know 14 of them, and those 14 seem to have their
stuff together. With the exception of Charlie (dealing with loss), Claire
(dealing w/ baby then getting kidnapped), and Shannon (sunbathing) everyone
else seems to be doing something beneficial. Even Sawyer has taken it
upon himself to gather up items that may help himself down the road.
I think that the characters that go off into the jungle alone, do so because
it is in their nature to be fearless or to figure out the angles. Kate,
Sawyer, Locke, and Sayid are all tough, all able to use weapons, and all
able to fend for themselves. They don't need help. Michael sticks close
to the fire unless their is a group going out or Walt is in danger. Boone
only goes with Locke. And Jack only wanders when led by the ghost of his
father. The comment that only Sun and Kate know about he garden may be
true...but how do we know. There are 26 other people that we don't know,
how do you or I know that those people don't know about the garden. Jin
fishes all day, I'm sure he doesn't just give the fish to Sun, Hurley,
Sawyer, and the main 14.
There may be some kind of sedative in the air or water. A sickness in
the boar, squirrel, or rabbit meat. There may be Tesla waves in the air
that cause peoples brains to explode...I don't know. But isn't it possible
that it's a little bit of both?
Bushwoods
Bushwoods.
I concur 100%. Exactly.
I don't know how to post photos, but there is one where they look very
organized... fires, tents, etc.
clone11
Quote:
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I am merely trying to show that human beings are human beings.
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Quote:
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post traumatic stress stuff
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You know, I really do understand all that. But I really am factoring those
modifiers into my suspicion and still say that those modifiers are not
sufficient to what is being portrayed behaviorally.
Is what you are saying then is that these are the only reasons the survivors
are acting so strangely?
Or is it your position they are not acting strangely?
Personally, I find them behaving strangely in a manner not consistent
with "humans will be humans" or "they got really scared
and now a tree falling causes them to seize up."
My argument is that in spite of even both those modifiers
there seems to be a behavioral pattern exhibited by ALL the survivors
of not being able to focus beyond the moment or their immediate concerns.
Now I grant you this could simply be the limitations imposed by having
only 42 minutes of storytelling or even an example of poor continuity
and/or writing.
But I don't think so.
I think they are behaving this way because they are written this way -
are meant to exhibit this behavior by the writers as part of the plot.
So therefore, it seems to me that there must be something about the island
that is causing this behavior.
I do not believe they are portraying that behavior to show PTSD or self-centered
'survivor' type gamesmanship to avoid losing.
I am saying it is significant beyond it being PTSD or humans being
humans.
quote:
"Is what you are saying then is that these are the only reasons the survivors are acting so strangely?"
No, definately not the ONLY reason, but a major factor. And yes they are
acting strangely.
Initially, Ethan's odd flat delivery, made me think he was either a really
bad actor, or he was not all together human...clone, robot The bad acting
thing didn't sit right because everyone else is really good. The first
time Ethan spoke in the cave, was the equivalent to accidently discovery
salt in one's morning coffee instead of sugar. And from the get-go, I
couldn't stand the Jack character because he was so reactionary, and his
decision making lacked thoughtfulness. While everyone was embracing Jack
as the hero, he seemed to me like he was insane. So yes, they are getting
odd, but they have all been odd all along.
Editing can contribute to the oddness in behavior. But it's so heavy handed
at times that it must be deliberate. My boyfriend is an actor and he contributes
the oddness between the difference as who's training is in theater vs.
film.
--------------------
Right now, out of all the "grand theories out there", I'm leaning towards the "aboriginal dream-time" theory. Therefore, the exaggerated odd behavior might be a clue as to whether the character is in "dream time" or "real time." If this theory holds no water, then I have to go on the idea that their behavior is expected because of the circumstances they've been through and that their psyches are sort of coasting through various stages and intensities of a breakdown.
clone11
First let me say again, I like this theory as it is the only one that
will allow me to not be totally pissed off at the show for bad writing.
If the weirdness in behavior is part of the plot, then I can relax because
the writing would make sense.
However, in fairness, I would like to add a counterpoint to some points
made in support of this theory. We have said in this and other threads
that it is unlikely that in a group of 40 something people, there wouldn't
be a few more aggressive types. Upon further review, I do not find this
assumption to be accurate. According to a personality profiling system
I have used at several of my jobs, the DISC model, the show seems accurate,
if not a little heavy on leader types. The D personality is the driver
or the leader, it is estimated that only 3% of the population is a D type
personality. Out of 48 people, I think that was the original count, only
1.44 people would be true leader types. Others would be calculators, or
thinkers, the C type - they would make up 11% or 5.28 people. 17% or 8.16
would be inspirational, or nurturing types. The main group would be the
S type, I forget what that is, but not leaders - I always remember S as
Sheep - 33.12 of the survivors would be in this category. So, when we
assume that there would be more leaders, that is not really the case.
In fact, the group on the Island is heavy on the number of leaders there.
morbius76
Quote:
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If the weirdness in behavior is part of the plot, then I can relax because
the writing would make sense.
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Yes, that's the problem. I've had a hard time relaxing at all because I can't make sense of anything any more.
Morb, I've also been totally disgusted with the lack of drive and ambition
but after reading your numbers I can see why there might be some problems
accomplishing anything. They're too busy comforting one another, thinking
without doing, folding clothes, looking for hairbrushes and following
one another around like they're in a herd.
So I'm liking Chance's theory. It's between this and Neill's for now.
But I'm leaving my mind open (a little anyway).
JacksGirlfriend
question is can it get any worse? I think so. Heard a rumor claire will
not remember anything like charlie could not. I think they are getting
very lame and have no clue where to take this show. The writers are probably
opening fortune cookies looking for ideas.
gscaleta